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CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

These are simple stills with no column. Doublers and puke boxes are allowed.

Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby punkin » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:40 pm

Cept the incoming vapour is hotter than the outgoing vapour because the outgoing is enriched to a greater abv.

Love that theory squidd but it seems to me that many people report a greater output from the same power input when they increase the condensor or piping size. It's happened enough to me to know it can be true.
I think it depends on the length of pipe the vapour has to travel through. A short restriction has no effect but a couple of metres is another story. I dot know if friction plays a part in a gas situation like it does with a liquid, but something does.


In any case i don't think anything will be relevant here as it will just work fine.
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby squidd » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:59 pm

Tap wrote:Great info coming in throughh this thread. my reason for using this thumper design is that I already have the poney keg, and there won't need to be any mods done to it.

With this 'tube inside tube' design, it's 1inch going through 2inch. That would relate to an equal volume of vapour going in (1") and going out (1").
One of my concerns with this is the exiting vapour (whose total volume should be equal to the incoming vapour), will be compressed by having to travel in a more narrow path than the incoming, therefore increasing the pressure of the system.

Did that make sense to anyone?

In theory, I don't think the heating action of the vapour in, warming the vapour out is a problem.
I'll illustrate my thoughts using fictional numbers...
Say the vapour entering the thumper is 100deg.... as it passes through the liquid in the thumper it drops to 95.... then as it exits, it's passively reheated by the incoming vapour back to 100... then as it hits the condenser it will be no hotter than it would be if it was run directly from the boiler...
This is only a fictional scenario to illustrate a thought.

No matter how hot the thumper is running at any given moment, the vapour exiting to the condenser can not be hotter than vapour coming directly from the boiler.


It's worth mentioning that I have already built this system (minus the thumper). The liebig has turbulators in the vapour path, and the cooling water path. It knocks everything down just fine, but if I had to do it again I'd make it longer.

Dad300... your suggestion for reducing the lenth of the 2"x12" riser from the thump is spot on. That will definitely happen.

cheers


Hi Tap,

....With this 'tube inside tube' design, it's 1inch going through 2inch. That would relate to an equal volume of vapour going in (1") and going out (1")....

Sorry to nit pick, but no.

Neglecting the space occupied by the material thickness of the inner tube, there would be a 3:1 volume ratio in favour of the incoming vapour in your size selection. For equality, the inner tube would have to be 1.4142 inches. (Square root of 2).

Using 1.5 inches for the inner tube would give a volume ratio of 1.75 : 2.25 in favour of the inner tube.

.....One of my concerns with this is the exiting vapour (whose total volume should be equal to the incoming vapour), will be compressed by having to travel in a more narrow path than the incoming, therefore increasing the pressure of the system....

Yes, the back pressure will rise somewhat.

.....Did that make sense to anyone?.....

Does to me.


.....No matter how hot the thumper is running at any given moment, the vapour exiting to the condenser can not be hotter than vapour coming directly from the boiler.....

Absolutely true. Not only can it not be hotter, but it HAS to be cooler since no heat is added to the thumper other than that of the incoming vapour. Since heat transfer is never 100% efficient, and since there are heat losses in the thumper, the outgoing vapour temperature can never equal that of the incoming vapour.

The Laws of Thermogodamics raise their ugly heads every time. :(

Cheers,
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby squidd » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:28 pm

punkin wrote:Cept the incoming vapour is hotter than the outgoing vapour because the outgoing is enriched to a greater abv.

Love that theory squidd but it seems to me that many people report a greater output from the same power input when they increase the condensor or piping size. It's happened enough to me to know it can be true.
I think it depends on the length of pipe the vapour has to travel through. A short restriction has no effect but a couple of metres is another story. I dot know if friction plays a part in a gas situation like it does with a liquid, but something does.


In any case i don't think anything will be relevant here as it will just work fine.


....I dot know if friction plays a part in a gas situation like it does with a liquid, but something does...

Yes friction definitely plays a part in real life, and was ignored in the above posts.
Because of friction losses, compressor stations are required on long distance gas pipelines.

Please don't ask me for the math. (I can suggest a link if you insist). :)

Cheers,
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Tap » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:26 pm

"No matter how hot the thumper is running at any given moment, the vapour exiting to the condenser can not be hotter than vapour coming directly from the boiler.....

.................Absolutely true. Not only can it not be hotter, but it HAS to be cooler since no heat is added to the thumper other than that of the incoming vapour. Since heat transfer is never 100% efficient, and since there are heat losses in the thumper, the outgoing vapour temperature can never equal that of the incoming vapour............

What I was trying to get at here is that having the outgoing vapour heated by the incoming souldn't affect it right?
perhaps the problem is more in the incoming vapour being COOLED by the outgoing?

mybe my math is wrong but (disregarding pipe thickness) the area of the 2inch pipe = 3.149 sq inches. 1 inch pipe = 0.7857 sq inches.
3.149 sq inches - 0.7857 sq inches = 2.3572
The outgoing vapour will be more than the incoming. no?
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby squidd » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:18 pm

..........What I was trying to get at here is that having the outgoing vapour heated by the incoming souldn't affect it right?
perhaps the problem is more in the incoming vapour being COOLED by the outgoing?...........

I don't think this will be an issue.

...........mybe my math is wrong but (disregarding pipe thickness) the area of the 2inch pipe = 3.149 sq inches. 1 inch pipe = 0.7857 sq inches.
3.149 sq inches - 0.7857 sq inches = 2.3572
The outgoing vapour will be more than the incoming. no?...........

Your math is spot on.

I mixed up your IN's and OUT's, sorry. But the ratios that I gave you are correct.
So, 2.3572/0.7857 = 3, or 3:1 ratio for the outgoing vapour up the 2" riser & tee up to the branch.

Then it becomes 1:1, (1" IN from the boiler and 1" OUT of the thumper) as you said earlier.

Cheers,
squidd
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Tap » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:46 pm

as usual, you're spot on with ur observations.
I just really hope that anyone who is running this kind of thump plumbing can chime in on this design.'
I know you're out there...
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Tap » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:15 am

.
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Azframer » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:32 am

There is nothing wrong with the design, the vapor will be condensed as a normal thumper would and turned right back to vapor again, the bi-pass in the fittings will not hurt at all. If it were cooling the product then you would have a problem and it would flood.
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Bobtuse » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:07 pm

It works. I run one. I dont know about efficiency and all the numbers flying around in the thread, but it does work. Ive never done a timed comparison to the straight pot still, but Ive never felt the need either. Seems to run fast enough. I run a 1 1/4" pipe thru a 2" reducer. into a pony keg. 1" output to condenser. It will also hook up to a full keg...

Damn useful bit of kit as well. I find it most useful for steam infusing gin. Macerate in the keg and then hook it up to the boiler running just water and away you go.
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Scout » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:38 am

Nice rig, I agree that they work. My only question is, what is the advantage of running a tube in a tube setup ? I've always run single in and out thumpers but I'm always ready to try something that might work better. I just can't see any advantage of running a thumper this way (except for the infusing comment), but then I'm older than dirt so maybe I'm missing something.
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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Bobtuse » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:05 pm

Ease of use/plumbing. Its still single input single output. It just is an easy clean way to attach to easily available sankey fittings and no drilling holes.

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Re: CAD rendering and specs of potstill with thumper

Postby Tap » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:01 am

Bobtuse wrote:Ease of use/plumbing. Its still single input single output. It just is an easy clean way to attach to easily available sankey fittings and no drilling holes.

BoB



exactly. That was my reason for doing this design. no need for extra holes and connections in the thump.

I ended up using two 15.5gal kegs for this setup. one for the boiler and one for the thumper.

it works a treat. I can add an extra 7 or so gallons of mash in the thumper during stripping runs without worrying about overfilling.

I have yet to try the steam injecting method that you mentioned, but I've been contemplating doing an 'on the grain' run someday soon.
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