• Advertisement

Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

If you found a good how-to then show us the way there.

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Taylor-MadeAK » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:25 am

Glad to help, Rebel_Yell, but my only real "products" are the guides linked in the first post in this topic. I don't sell koji-kin, nor do I represent Vision Brewing in any way.

Koji serves a similar purpose to 6-row malt, that is to say it supplies diastatic activity far in excess to its own contribution of fermentables. It produces so much alpha amylase, in fact, that it can convert four times its weight in dry rice to fermentable sugars. Dry rice, of course, must be soaked and steamed to gelatinize its starch before any kind of enzymes can act on it.

There is, however, a catch: unlike malt, koji doesn't produce any beta amylase. For that reason, it's only suitable for degrading carboyhdrates that contain mostly amylose with very little amylopectin. Using grain that contains large amounts of amylopectin (like waxy rice) results in the production of a large amount of unfermentable dextrins, giving you a sweet final product.

If detailed how-to guides on growing koji and using it to make sake are what you want, the best thing to do is visit my website and start reading...but you've already been doing that, which is what brought my attention around to this specific topic on this forum in the first place. :8) I've done my very best to make sure those guides are as simple and easy to follow as possible, but I'm still always willing to answer specific questions via e-mail.
Taylor-MadeAK
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby brantoken » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:48 am

OK ,Koji does not reproduce in a ferment. So let me ask this, Can you add rice to a koji working culture and continue to produce more kogi without going into the spore stage?

In other words, say I start the process and at day three ( for concept demonstration only) , I add more rice and the
culture continues to grow. In this way I keep it from going to spore and reduce risk of contamination.
Parental Digression Advised
TV
MA
SLV
User avatar
brantoken
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:05 pm
Equipment type: 3 inch ,Vm, Hybrid pot and Vacuum convertible electric modular still.
10.5Kw is nice.

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Adverse Effects » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:00 am

welcome Taylor-MadeAK i linked to your site for one main reason
out of the 50 or so "how to's" in the growth and use of Koji your's is far superior to all others

i thank you and i bet many of the readers here thank you to
Some people say its "FREE" but i say "there ant no free lunch" you get what you pay/work for
Help those that help them self first
Ponu still head
60mm X 2040mm VM-LM-POT still
User avatar
Adverse Effects
 
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:35 am
Equipment type: .
25Lt old keg as a BOP
87Lt very old Keg as a BOP
226Lt SS pot as a BOP
prototype Ponu still head

60mmX2040mm VM-LM-POT still

5Mt of 12.5mm tube coiled in to a 600mm long encapsulated liebig

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Taylor-MadeAK » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:56 pm

brantoken wrote:OK ,Koji does not reproduce in a ferment. So let me ask this, Can you add rice to a koji working culture and continue to produce more kogi without going into the spore stage?

In other words, say I start the process and at day three ( for concept demonstration only) , I add more rice and the
culture continues to grow. In this way I keep it from going to spore and reduce risk of contamination.

From what I've seen while growing it myself, koji won't spread without making spores. So adding more rice to a culture already in incubation probably wouldn't result in increasing your koji output volume.

The research I did before writing the guide about making koji says that attempting a continuous incubation is a bad idea for another reason entirely. Remember that even though the FDA and most of the world considers koji to be GRAS (generally regarded as safe), it's still a member of the aspergillus flavus family. In fact, it's the only known member of that group of fungi that isn't highly toxic as well as carcinogenic. That having been said, according to an EPA risk assessment paper that I found while doing the research prior to writing that guide, koji starts to produce a whole bunch of rather unsavory toxins after about 72 hours of incubation:
US EPA wrote:Even with the food industry strains, a caveat of safety is that the fungal incubation not exceed the normal three day period. A. oryzae has been shown to produce toxic compounds under incubations longer than the typical koji fermentation(Semeniuk et al, 1971; Yokotsuka & Sasaki, 1986).

This safety concern is the reason why every batch of sake made at every kura in Japan and around the world starts with inoculating a fresh batch of rice with koji-kin spores.

I shudder to imagine what would happen if you made a wash with koji that was well into its toxin production phase, and then concentrated the results through distillation. :cry: You wouldn't put potato leaves and stems in your vodka wash, right?

Adverse Effects wrote:welcome Taylor-MadeAK i linked to your site for one main reason
out of the 50 or so "how to's" in the growth and use of Koji your's is far superior to all others

i thank you and i bet many of the readers here thank you to

Thank you for the compliment, and you're welcome. :D Creating the most detailed and easiest to follow guides regarding making sake and all of its sub-processes was my intention. It's gratifying to hear that I've succeeded.
Taylor-MadeAK
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Rebel_Yell » Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:22 pm

Taylor-MadeAK wrote:This safety concern is the reason why every batch of sake made at every kura in Japan and around the world starts with inoculating a fresh batch of rice with koji-kin spores.


Thanks! That's a gem. Great to know and understand.
I have read through your site and found it wonderfully done.
Your product is knowledge... thanks for sharing.
Your results may vary..
I would rather teach a pig to sing than argue with an Idiot.
Every sixty seconds you spend angry, upset or mad,
is a full minute of happiness you'll never get back.
User avatar
Rebel_Yell
 
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:21 pm
Location: South by Gawd

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Mud » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:32 pm

What Rebel said. Thanks a lot for sharing.
Specialization is for Kiwi.
Artisan Distilling Book
User avatar
Mud
 
Posts: 4338
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:10 pm
Location: The wilds of PA, USA
Equipment type: Keg based pot - sometimes propane powered but mostly electric

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Taylor-MadeAK » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:11 am

No problem. I'm here to answer whatever other questions you guys have. :D
Taylor-MadeAK
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby brantoken » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:36 am

thanks for you input. I like to ask questions and lots of them before I embark on a new venture. I even have a biologist on consultation ( a friend , of course). I have received several warnings about contamination from the other mold living about. Enough so to make me hesitate,rethink and re-plan the endeavor.
Parental Digression Advised
TV
MA
SLV
User avatar
brantoken
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:05 pm
Equipment type: 3 inch ,Vm, Hybrid pot and Vacuum convertible electric modular still.
10.5Kw is nice.

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Taylor-MadeAK » Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:19 pm

As long as you're careful to get good coverage with the koji-kin spores while inoculating your rice and incubate it in a mostly enclosed environment, you won't have anything to worry about. Koji grows pretty rapidly, so within the first 20 hours it should have colonized enough of the rice to crowd out any other organisms that might try to get in there.

The warnings are correct, of course: if you see any colors in there that aren't the translucent yellow of steamed rice or the white of koji, or you smell any "off" aromas that aren't the cheese-chestnut smell of koji, throw the batch out and start over. That having been said, I've done 5 batches since starting to make my own koji, and I haven't had a batch go bad yet. That might be because I only do it in the winter, though.
Taylor-MadeAK
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby stillvodka » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:40 pm

stillvodka
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Adverse Effects » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:34 pm

stillvodka wrote:http://www.tibbs-vision.com/sake/

that is the site i linked to in post 1 Vision Brewing
Some people say its "FREE" but i say "there ant no free lunch" you get what you pay/work for
Help those that help them self first
Ponu still head
60mm X 2040mm VM-LM-POT still
User avatar
Adverse Effects
 
Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:35 am
Equipment type: .
25Lt old keg as a BOP
87Lt very old Keg as a BOP
226Lt SS pot as a BOP
prototype Ponu still head

60mmX2040mm VM-LM-POT still

5Mt of 12.5mm tube coiled in to a 600mm long encapsulated liebig

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby stillvodka » Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:56 pm

Adverse Effects wrote:
stillvodka wrote:http://www.tibbs-vision.com/sake/

that is the site i linked to in post 1 Vision Brewing


That's me not paying attention, :oops: ha well, call it a reminder, for people like me who don't read threads from the beginning :)
stillvodka
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby stillvodka » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:01 am

Is the the Vision Koji site still doing business , I put an Order in for one of their koji Kits, I have sent my money through their paypal order lines, but I have not had any confirmation yet to confirm they received the order from me, I have also sent them an email asking for confirmation, I have had no reply,
Anybody on here have any information on the company,

Thanks
stillvodka
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby Taylor-MadeAK » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:21 am

I don't know if they're doing business through their web site, but they're definitely still in the business of selling koji-kin spores. Seeing as the order was placed over a weekend, I would counsel patience. You'll probably hear from them on Monday.
Taylor-MadeAK
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:45 am

Re: Making Koji for Homebrewing Sake & Making Sake

Postby stillvodka » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:01 am

Taylor-MadeAK wrote:I don't know if they're doing business through their web site, but they're definitely still in the business of selling koji-kin spores. Seeing as the order was placed over a weekend, I would counsel patience. You'll probably hear from them on Monday.


Thanks for your reply Taylor :)

Yes they are still doing business
I had my conformation email this morning, Chap by the name of Brendan replied to my email this morning, I cant wait to have ago at at sake
stillvodka
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 3:45 am

PreviousNext

Return to Links to Procedures

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest