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Calculating the Output ABV

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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Mud » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:36 am

<sits down on Punkin's couch> Pass the popcorn?
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:30 pm

Mud wrote:Aw, hell. Ive been doing this for years. All of it. The diluting, the siphoning. Figured it all out on my own, too, with no help from any books or the distilling community. You should have just asked me. Oh well.

Oh sure, and you just kept it secret-squirrel? One helluva asset you turned out to be!
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:33 pm

dutchmancreek wrote:I don't worry about total output and am more concerned with the taste.

I knew there was something about you I liked, but I figured it was the big feet.
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby punkin » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:35 pm

Mud wrote:<sits down on Punkin's couch> Pass the popcorn?



I ate all the popcorn, but i still have some sweetcakes.

Looks like i have time to make some onion rings too :D



I'll grab us a beer
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby dutchmancreek » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:37 pm

punkin wrote:
Mud wrote:<sits down on Punkin's couch> Pass the popcorn?



I ate all the popcorn, but i still have some sweetcakes.

Looks like i have time to make some onion rings too :D



I'll grab us a beer


Sweetcakes, huh?

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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby eternalfrost » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:00 am

how would a thumper add into all of this?

been thinking about making one, but by calculations, a 10% wash with 2 plates gives about 80% output...
seems like you couldnt ever do a stripping run without way overproofing for flavored spirits?
is that ok?
just run the whole thing slow straight from the wash?
what abv would you put in the thumper?

confused...
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Absinthe » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:39 am

i have never used a thumper and i don't think i ever will.. they are not used in any batch distillery that i know of (but im sure im wrong on that lol), and i thought they were just made to increase the output of the still so you could do the whole thing in one run.

im not sure who said it (i think it one of those who shall not be named form HD) if its made for speed and for others use a thumper if you want it nice for yourself then "double and twist"

i think a "slobber box" could be a good idea for rum strips though
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Usge » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:24 pm

DAAaang....my head hurts!! Just got caught up, I think. Did I miss it or did someone somewhere explain "demisting"? I've been keeping my low-wines in separate 1 gal glass jugs and dumping them in the pot when ready to run. I have been diluting with water though. The concept of separation of low-wines is new to me....interesting. I've got to come up with something I can make so I can try it. Question: are the plastics normally used for fermentation ok to use with those relatively low abv numbers? (ie., 27%). I've got a couple of 30L plastic fermenter buckets I could put one of those spigots in that has rotating siphon arm.

In my tests, my Ga Ridge head from the Colonel pulls about 10-15% higher than the water/alc vapor chart on average even with all the various internal CM systems by-passed. Just the shape/design of the head itself I guess.
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby eternalfrost » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:41 pm

Usge:
I store low wines and feints etc in corney kegs. they are 5 gallons each and indestrictable. perfect for bulk storage at any proof.

1/4" copper fits right into the ports and you can pump out of them with compressed air or co2 just like if they were full of normal beer or soda.
setting the arm at the right height you can pull off any section you want.
have to admit though that i just pump all the low wines out. this whole phase separation thing is new to me...

it may be a tad over the top, but its dead easy and 100% safe with no worries about high proofs in plastic or any structural modifications.
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Usge » Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:51 pm

Thanks EF.

Corny might be a little overkill. I was thinking something I could see through (or at least translucent) so that I can draw it off from bottom (with extender tube pointing up to middle) and watch the level as it goes down to know when to stop.

OK, got that demisting is basically checking fores with water in hydrometer till they don't cloud..is that correct? Also, it seems they don't really make a distinction between fores and "heads". It's just keep checking till it clears then start keeping it as potable spirit. I haven't tried this yet, but it just seems to me that this would be keeping a good bit of heads. Or is it the result of this separation procedure, etc., that there is no longer "heads" phase — ie cause it's now a much more potable spirit with less impurities? Just wondering how everybody is using this test (demisting). I've tried mixing water with early heads, etc., before...they didn't cloud. What does that mean? Or is there some particular method of doing this test I'm missing (ie., shaking it up, etc??)

Great info/interesting!
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby zedzedtop » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:53 pm

Seems that demisting is really checking for tails that were on the wall of the still from the previous run. They come out with the fores. It also seems that scotch distilleries keep a lot of heads in their 'potable' spirit.
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Usge » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:51 pm

hmm. The way I'm reading what abs posted above seems to be saying that keeping low-wines/feints, etc., under 30abv, separating low-wines, etc., helps avoid getting fatty/feinty esters in your spirit run, and that demisting was the way you check for it. It specifically says if you don't separate your still charge at under 30 abv, that you may carry these impurties throughout the run and never clear the demisting test. That seems to imply that the lack of separation in low-wines to remove them is the cause of them coming out on the run? Or am I reading that wrong.
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby zedzedtop » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:29 am

The demisting and low wines separating are two different processes. Demisting means you've cleaned out the still from the last run, and the LW separation is to minimize the amount of higher boiling point compounds to begin with. Doesn't seem that demisting is that important for us because we clean the still (I do anyway) out after each run, and we tend to take a tighter middle cut than the scotts do.
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Usge » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:09 pm

Ok, found they define demisting as checking the distillate for clouding by diluting with cold water to 46%. When it's clear at that proof, it's defined as "potable" spirit.

When they discuss solubility issues with separation of fusels, etc., they mention a couple of different things though. One is, that fusels will settle on walls and "heavier soluables" in the bottom of "the condenser", which is the problem you referred to....ie., left over fusels in the still from a previous run. What you say makes sense, you do demisting check to check for any residual impurities coming out till it runs clean — and that cleaning/rinsing still in between runs probably negates the need for doing demisting for "that" particular reason. But, they also mention this in context of doing demisting check as a way to test for "other" issues, even though what you are checking for is the same thing...they mention doing it for different reason. In this case, it's the solubility issue with low-wines in the still charge and the idea that above 30%, the fusels will effectively bind or dissolve and not separate. And that "demisting" test is also how you check for this — even though you are basically doing the same test ie., checking for these excess impurities, you are doing it for different reason..ie., not because the still was dirty after a previous run.

They also mention that even after diluting to proper abv, emptying the entire contents of your low-wines container into the still is a "sure way to have a blank run", and that demisting is a way to check for that as well. In regards to this particular issue, I re-read the section again, and off hand they seem to be saying that the solubility issue of separation in low-wines under 30% is the "top"...ie., the fusels float to the top. The only mention of heavier solubles settling "on the bottom" that I found was not in reference to "low-wines" or still charge, it was in regards to the "condenser" after a run — unless I missed something? In reference to the low-wines and not emptying the entire container, they mention only siphoning off below the top layer. They do not mention anything about the bottom being contaminated as well. At least not as far as I can find. They say..."the surface phase", should not be allowed to enter the pot chamber. And they only speak of what will separate at lower proofs as "floating" not sinking.

Its all very new to me, so forgive my prattling on...thinking aloud. I also wonder how much of this applies to "corn" based low-wines, as opposed to barley? I have some corn low-wines sitting around...think I will try to do a test this weekend in a pint jar...see what I can see.
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Re: Calculating the Output ABV

Postby Harry » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:10 pm

Usge wrote: The only mention of heavier solubles settling "on the bottom" that I found was not in reference to "low-wines" or still charge, it was in regards to the "condenser" after a run — unless I missed something? In reference to the low-wines and not emptying the entire container, they mention only siphoning off below the top layer. They do not mention anything about the bottom being contaminated as well. At least not as far as I can find. They say..."the surface phase", should not be allowed to enter the pot chamber. And they only speak of what will separate at lower proofs as "floating" not sinking.



The separator I use is for my feints collection, not for low wines. But there's no reason to not use it on low wines. You could hydro-separate the low wines as a charge for a spirit still run. It certainly won't hurt.
.


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