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New Construction Method

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Re: New Construction Method

Postby myles » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:43 am

Adverse Effects wrote:you have the flow in the wrong direction in your pic you would have the flow the other way because the liquid would be cooling down as it gives its heat to the pot so it would want to flow down hill

same effect with steam would rise up the left hand pipe start to cool and flow down the tube/pot


I can't say without testing it but my gut says this is wrong. I had imagined that at some point the entire coil will be filled with steam or hot fluid of some sort. I think the thermodynamics will be that you are always putting in more heat than the wash can cope with. Thats why the wash boils. In this situation the coil doesn't acually cool - it just gets a bit less hot.

Once it has heated up to temperature, the easiest route for the - lets say steam for convenience - is to flow through the coil and over the overflow back into the reservoir. It wants to rise anyway by convection, and there is less weight of fluid in the coil for it to push against than there is in the reservoir.

If you can get the circulation to start flowing through the coil then it will actually suck fluid from the reservoir in the same way that a siphon works. I THINK.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby myles » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:26 am

I did a mock up out of 8mm tube to see if this coiled base idea would work. I think it will if your input side of the coil starts in the middle of the coil and comes up verticaly from underneath.

You can't get the initial coils of the spiral tight enough because of the minimum bend radius but this can be solved by soldering on a small copper disc on the top surface of the coil (it ends up inside your pot). Big enough to seal over the first 2 or 3 turns of the coil.

I put a small wall around the outside and made a pot big enough to hold about a cup full of water. Lifted both ends of the coil up above the rim, filled both the pot and the coil with water and heated it on my gas stove in the kitchen.

It came up to the boil without leaking all over the place so I think it will be viable. I don't think it will be possible to remelt the silver solder unless the pot boils dry.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby trthskr4 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:36 am

Myles you using just soft solder?

What about using some thing like the cold finger double wound condensers? What I mean is use a center piece and T off that and go in opposite directions but say turn both clockwise, would make for alternating the coils one around the other but you wouldn't have to start off with such a tight bend in the center of the coil. May be harder to seal around the center part though. Just a thought.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby punkin » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:52 pm

It's not gunna work with soft solder.

You have the same conclusion i came too Myles in that the only workable way to do a spiral would be to take the centre pipe up vertically into the pot, then out the side and into the expansion tank.

I can't see a way to do it how your saying either truth. I thought of that first, to have two say 50mm end caps joined to make a small tank with pipe coming out either side or just one side, the take off angle would have to be so slight as to be almost a slot, so you could get a seal the first overlap. Too damn difficult to do.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby trthskr4 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:10 pm

Can't put a 90* street elbow coming out of the end caps opposite each other and get the first tight bend? Put a small circular piece of copper sheet with a 2" hole cut out between the caps sticking out and giving a ledge to braze to and keep a seal in the first couple bends around the caps? Just asking and giving different ideas and trying to help. If I need to shut up just tell me. :D
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby myles » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:48 pm

No I am using silver solder. These are all good ideas folks lets not get touchy. Was worried the direct gas flame would re-melt the solder but I don't think that will be possible as long as there is fluid in the pot - or in the coil.

The only other effective way i can think of to do it, is to start in the middle with a small can (like when you squash a beer can flat) and have the coil coming out of THE CURVED SIDE. If you make your first coil with the same diameter as your central can then your first coil will follow the curve nicely.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby trthskr4 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:14 pm

Yeah, that's what I was talking about the whole time is to start with a say 2" round center piece that's enclosed, stand it upright and drill 2 holes or 1 in the side and start your coiling around that, you already have a curved surface to follow without such a tight first coil or 2.

If you use 2 alternating coils run both up the side and if you want put say 3/8 reducers on 1/2" tubing and put 2 valves in and if one is colder than the other then shut the hotter one down a bit with the valve. Maybe the reduction would also give you a little more velocity with the steam as well. I understand the issue with the steam condensing back to water at first, just put a P trap of sorts in the bottom of the center can to catch the water and allow the overflow to come back or drain. Put a valve on it if need be to drain and shut back off.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby punkin » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:44 pm

Who's getting touchy? Did i type wrong or something? Just can't see any touchy anywhere here..... :cry:


Is'd not coming out of the centre disc and sealing that's the problem, the elbow would work as would just soldering at an angle and bending round. It's the first crossover that's gunna leave ya with a huge gap to fill, when you've gone 360 degrees (or 180 with two pipes) and have to cross the point where it comes out of your tank. There'll be a wedge shaped hole to fill.

All ideas are good so far and i'm keen to get the best way to do it straight in my head before i start (and for the heat t0 cool off, 46 C in the shed atm)
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby myles » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:18 am

Yes that first crossover gap is an issue. What I did but bear in mind it was only a trial with 8mm tube, was to stuff the gap full of copper mesh - rammed in as tight as i could, and fill it with solder. Didnt look very pretty but it worked.

That sound hot in your shed. Is there a way to reuse the heads to provide some sort of evapourative cooling instead of pouring it down the drain?
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby trthskr4 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:02 am

punkin wrote:Who's getting touchy? Did i type wrong or something? Just can't see any touchy anywhere here..... :cry:


Is'd not coming out of the centre disc and sealing that's the problem, the elbow would work as would just soldering at an angle and bending round. It's the first crossover that's gunna leave ya with a huge gap to fill, when you've gone 360 degrees (or 180 with two pipes) and have to cross the point where it comes out of your tank. There'll be a wedge shaped hole to fill.

All ideas are good so far and i'm keen to get the best way to do it straight in my head before i start (and for the heat t0 cool off, 46 C in the shed atm)


I didn't see any touchy-ness.

That's what I meant to use the sheet copper for is to seal the first crossover. If you're using 1/2" tubing, drill a hole for the tubing in the open bottom end of the just say top cap. Cut a 3" disc of sheet copper and drill a 2" hole in center, use 2 caps and a short piece of 2" pipe, put the pipe inside one cap, put the disc of sheet over it and then put the second cap on top. Insert your tubing or elbow and solder or braze the whole thing up with your first couple turns made already. When you get to the crossover gap fuck the wedge and solder the tubing to the copper sheet. Then work your solder around the tubing to the top of the coil and start sealing between the coils from there on out.

If I had the money to go buy all the stuff I'd do it now and do it this way. I wish I could draw the thing out. :ranting:
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby punkin » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:21 pm

Gotcha, cept you could still pull the tube outa the centre tween the caps (might have to put a small piece of two inch pipe in to make the tank wide enough) if you were doin it the way you two are describing, it'd work though.

Assuming we are not concerned with being able to clean the bottom or sides of the pot (we're never gunna let it dry on there right?) you could make the bottom of the pot that meets the flame a convex shape to capture the flame better. Dish down before you started to wind up for the side....

Should still fit my rim burner that way and be very stable... :)

Just thinking if you were to use oil or water, you wouldn't need flow as such, just an expansion tank with two lead ins at the bottom.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby trthskr4 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:37 pm

If you use oil it would make for a little longer heat up, slower response to heat input changes but it would be pretty stable in temp once up to working temp. I also thought we were talkin about using steam to heat it but either way.
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby punkin » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:14 am

You can use steam, i'm a little scared of it. I don't have the energy to investigate the complexities and oil shouldn't evaporate away. talked to a boilermaker today and i think i'm right to build an experimental model. Might make a tiny still for spirit runs of small batches. Maybe eight or ten shengs as a proof of concept that will be useful to me. :8)
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Re: New Construction Method

Postby trthskr4 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:16 am

If it works patent it. Somebody can financially benefit from it. :D
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