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perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby Pa_bon » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:16 pm

I actually like Devil's Cut. Also drink mine neat most of the time.
Overhead the albatross
Hangs motionless upon the air
And deep beneath the rolling waves
In labyrinths of coral caves
An echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand
And everything is green and submarine

Pink Floyd
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby manu de hanoi » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:37 am

there are plenty of forum section stuffed with info hardly related to distilling, I dont see what is the big deal with alcoholism other than cognitive dissonance
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby brantoken » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:50 am

Greetings Guys,

It's been awhile, I have been dealing with some similar issues in my life as well.

I think there are a lot of different ways of dealing with some of the hazards of the hobby/ lifestyle.

Finding ways to keep oneself well moderated, could very well be considered a skill set in of itself . :idea:

If you consider the creative energy on this forum , It could be a very powerful source of life style improvement :wink: .

Really simply, what works and what doesn't, as usual some things work for some other methods work well for others. Keep the religious stuff out.

Consider the french paradox ... there are ways to keep healthy, you just have to have a different approach and avoid the leaky still ( so to say) .

Certainly worth considering, I agree with Manua. I mean after all, you would tell someone to how not blow them selves to kingdom come . A freaking hazard is a hazard, if anybody can get results on new approaches to be safe it is this group. Your a powerful lot.

Also I have been considering distilling naked (after I sky drive into my back yard off course). I am a bit older and it could work as a security measure( people will avert their eyes) . Can We have a forum for that as well? :rkn: :!: I really don't want to burn my privates. :ranting:

and of course what ever pinto says....
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby John Galt » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:30 pm

brantoken wrote:Greetings Guys,



Finding ways to keep oneself well moderated, could very well be considered a skill set in of itself . :idea:

If you consider the creative energy on this forum , It could be a very powerful source of life style improvement :wink: .

I agree with Manua. A freaking hazard is a hazard, if anybody can get results on new approaches to be safe it is this group. Your a powerful lot.

and of course what ever pinto says....


I'm not sure why I continue to entertain this idea, when in all reality, I don't give a shit...I routinely take detours around things I don't agree with.

Then again, my hunch is that there are some things I simply can't leave alone. They may seem innocent enough,but absolutely make no sense to me. A secondary motiviation is that I am a wonderful & kind person who wants to help those with their current level of understanding. (that's a joke for those who lost their sarcasm gene while drinking too much)

That being said, point 1 is great... finding ways to moderate mood, alchohol intake, outlook, output for employers (or yourself for the entrepeneurs in the house), how you treat your spouse, your pet, your child, etc. are all worth working toward and for. Those ideas are bigger than individual issues, add value to the lives of people around us, inside the forum community, and they are simply the right thing to do.

The contradiction here is that substance abuse is far more than a hazard, it is a disease. In the same vein with cancer, aids, heart disease, autism, and (forgive me for the reference), god knows what else a person wants to add to the list. Some are self inflicted, some not.

Programs that assist people with controlling disease rarely would induldge in exploring discussions of the disease with the providers of the addictive substance. For example, applying the logic demonstrated in your post would require us to get back to the campfire with Columbian cartels in order to really understand why cocaine is a big deal, or if you are a current events junkee, taking time talking with the Afghans about why they farm poppy plants. Obviously not a productive conversation. Or, perhaps more closely linked, having a person suffering from a debilitating disease named bulimia and encouraging them to work for McDonalds or Krispy Kreme...and have them speak to the supervisory staff and colleagues about how to solve for symptoms as if they had the skills to deal with such issues. If you are an alcoholic, chances are you will need professional help to control symptoms...not immerse yourself in a forum that separates ethanol from a mixture of ingredients. If you need to talk about it in a forum, and Pint says OK, then fine. Talking about it to opine is far different than using our industrious natures (in a collective sense) to solve for any one individual's substance abuse problem.

Anyway, I'm out on this topic, as you all can (and will) do exactly what you want.

Hope you all enjoy your secular and religious holidays. Happy new year to boot.

Edited for clarity...my apologies.
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby Kareltje » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:41 pm

I am not sure I understand fully what you are saying, but it is late and I consumed some of my own and someone elses product.

I think that discussing the dangers of one's hobby or profession is always usefull. One of the dangers of our hobby is alcoholism or, the other way round: one of the dangers of alcoholism is making beer, wine or distillate.

Dangers of our hobby are 1) being caught by the government, 2) catching fire, 3) having dying consumers and 4) alcoholism.

There are topics about the dangers 1 up and including 3, so why not having a topic about danger 4?
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby pintoshine » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:20 pm

I always encourage people to think. The last post gathered all the reasoning and arguments into 1 very well presented argument. I was convinced. Refresh the page at the top level and see if I can add improvements.
Change the names? Possibly text to add tot he descriptions? Lets continue this in the topic.
Distill safe. Make good cuts. Enjoy yourself. Give as much as you take. Have fun doing this incredibly hard work. Be a good example. It's your hobby.
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby John Galt » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:00 am

Kareltje wrote:I am not sure I understand fully what you are saying, but it is late and I consumed some of my own and someone elses product.

I think that discussing the dangers of one's hobby or profession is always usefull. One of the dangers of our hobby is alcoholism or, the other way round: one of the dangers of alcoholism is making beer, wine or distillate.

Dangers of our hobby are 1) being caught by the government, 2) catching fire, 3) having dying consumers and 4) alcoholism.

There are topics about the dangers 1 up and including 3, so why not having a topic about danger 4?


Back in...and yes, sometimes, I can be hypocritical to my statements (in this case about being out of the discussion), when a completely asinine statement is made.

Point 3 in Kareljte's post is about having dying consumers....

Rebuttal 1: Follow the basic rules we all live by, and consumers do not die (short of a Jimi Hendrix experience). This is a straw-man at best, and is so outrageous that I can't believe it is considered. For me, I would never use a material or component that isn't considered to be capable of the task. So, lead solder is out...for example. Maybe kareljte can speak more openly about the materials he uses to complete his process. I wouldn't drink them based on his posts here an elsewhere.

Rebuttal 2: Danger is a real thing when folks deal with highly flammable liquid or gases capable of deflagration under certain conditions. I'm completely open to those topics. (concentration, oxygen supply, igntion source)... Unfortunately, Kareljte assumes that consumers of the products made based on the recommendations of this site pose a significant danger to those around them. To me, I find that offensive beyond discussion. I would never put people I care about in harms way because I was lazy or ignorant. Based upon the ease of the point with K, I'm guessing his liquor tastes metallic, and may cause a degradation of vision, and eventually some sort of Pb poisoning. Most of the rest of us are exponentially more careful.

Rebuttal 3: Alcoholism is not a danger, it is a disease. We do not turn to forums for disease control if we want to live. Go get help, and get the help you need. If you are capable of reading this, you know that the conflation of argments based on one convenient fact very well could result in your death. Get help from a professional. Do not believe the google machine.

for those that think the conflation of danger and disease is useful, there is no cure. I suggest you drink plenty from K's still. Your cure will be inevitable.

Merry Christmas. :) And for those offended...merry something else.
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby manu de hanoi » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:03 am

John Galt wrote:
Rebuttal 3: Alcoholism is not a danger, it is a disease.

rebuttal: a disease and an addiction are 2 different things
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby John Galt » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:10 am

manu de hanoi wrote:
John Galt wrote:
Rebuttal 3: Alcoholism is not a danger, it is a disease.

rebuttal: a disease and an addiction are 2 different things


Split your hairs manu, distract those who lack your skill and approach with shiny targets, make them feel good. You are no less than Robin Hood.

Alcoholism is a disease. Your move.
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby manu de hanoi » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:18 am

John Galt wrote:
Alcoholism is a disease. Your move.

We do not turn to forums for disease control if we want to live. Go get help, and get the help you need. If you are capable of reading this, you know that the conflation of argments based on one convenient fact very well could result in your death. Get help from a professional.


First you call addiction a "disease"then say you dont need forums for disease but pros instead.
Except that pple do turn to forums for addictions.
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby John Galt » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:26 am

manu de hanoi wrote:
John Galt wrote:
Alcoholism is a disease. Your move.

We do not turn to forums for disease control if we want to live. Go get help, and get the help you need. If you are capable of reading this, you know that the conflation of argments based on one convenient fact very well could result in your death. Get help from a professional.


First you call addiction a "disease"then say you dont need forums for disease but pros instead.
Except that pple do turn to forums for addictions.


So, your proof of concept is that people turn to distillation forums to prove the distinction between disease and addiction? Well done. I haven't seen that, but I guess I have a lot to learn.

Manu, I don't care what you decide to talk about on the forum...really. I can choose to move on to another place if it becomes that intolerable. The thing you need to do is recognize that consorting with people who separate ethanol from a mixture in a boiler is not a place to solve the problems you mention...such as alcoholism. You might consider remedies from places/groups/forums that understand your plight, commiserate with your plight, and join you in becoming a better person in your own life. Myself, I just want to make good whiskey..and that's what we do here. If that is out of scope...I'm sorry for not being considerate enough. Maybe I should join a different club that wants to talk about my desires of making great bourbon being less important that your straw man arguments, or your base argument. Then, maybe, after years and years of forgetting how to think, I could get to the point of blaming people who boil liquids for my problems. Until then, we disagree.
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby manu de hanoi » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:46 am

John Galt wrote:
manu de hanoi wrote:
John Galt wrote:
Alcoholism is a disease. Your move.

We do not turn to forums for disease control if we want to live. Go get help, and get the help you need. If you are capable of reading this, you know that the conflation of argments based on one convenient fact very well could result in your death. Get help from a professional.


First you call addiction a "disease"then say you dont need forums for disease but pros instead.
Except that pple do turn to forums for addictions.


So, your proof of concept is that people turn to distillation forums to prove the distinction between disease and addiction?
No, for that, a dictionary would be enough

Well done. I haven't seen that, but I guess I have a lot to learn.
In rational argumentation you seem to indeed

Manu, I don't care what you decide to talk about on the forum...really. I can choose to move on to another place if it becomes that intolerable. The thing you need to do is recognize that consorting with people who separate ethanol from a mixture in a boiler is not a place to solve your problems. You might consider remedies from places/groups/forums that understand your plight, commiserate with your plight, and join you in becoming a better person in your own life. Myself, I just want to make good whiskey..and that's what we do here. If that is out of scope...I'm sorry for not being considerate enough.
Another fallacious argument. Having a forum section wont prevent you from anything, you dont have to read or use it.
If however seeing the word alcoholism on the front page is "intolerable", that may be cognitive dissonance you should try to work on your internal consistency


Maybe I should join a different club that wants to talk about my desires of making great bourbon being less important that your straw man arguments, or your base argument. Then, maybe, after years and years of forgetting how to think, I could get to the point of blaming people who boil liquids for my problems. Until then, we disagree.
I am in no way preventing you to make bourbon or blaming anyone on this website. If you feel like so then check my point above
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby John Galt » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:12 am

[quote="manu de hanoi"][quote="John Galt"][quote="manu de hanoi"][quote="John Galt"]



So, your proof of concept is that people turn to distillation forums to prove the distinction between disease and addiction?
No, for that, a dictionary would be enough

Let's focus on point 1. Your conflation of addiction and disease is interesting. Folks should search the point and decide whether or not this is as you say.

Beyond that, have your forum, Pint has already posted the thread. I'm all for it, as long as you do not opine as some false authority that you have it all figured out. Based on our discussion, I am convinced otherwise
m
My journey is more aligned with someone wanting to make a great product that is enjoyable to e...but that is some how overshadowed by the points Manu continues to make. It is apparent s/he believes in the collective. That is a different argument for a different day.

Out. 100% this time.
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Re: perhaps a forum section on alcoholism would be helpfull

Postby Tracker » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:19 pm

Boring. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Can't you two just get a life.


No Cheers on this one.
Tracker out.
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