• Advertisement

assisted oaking

If you are testing new material or old materials in a new way, tell us about it.

assisted oaking

Postby big worm » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:39 pm

i have been toying around with the idea of either or both aging whisky on oak
and assisting the process with either pressure or vaccum i figure only a small change i atmosphirc pressure 2-10# either way should do something. any thoughts on this?
"It is wise to learn how to ferment local products that are cheap and abundant."
User avatar
big worm
 
Posts: 2064
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:44 pm

Postby Mud » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:55 pm

Might work. Sounds interesting. Sort of like distress aging with temperature changes. Of course, that method has mixed reviews. How would you change the pressure?

If you do it be sure to age some naturally in order to compare.

-Mud
Specialization is for Kiwi.
Artisan Distilling Book
User avatar
Mud
 
Posts: 4338
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:10 pm
Location: The wilds of PA, USA
Equipment type: Keg based pot - sometimes propane powered but mostly electric

Postby Decoy » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:08 pm

Has anyone got any idea what happens during the so called aging process..

there is a clear change in flavour perticularly in the first 2 months..

im inclined to think it is simply the organic contents rotting in the alcohol.
also it is more so affected by temperatue change, heatin and cooling.

has there been some kind of study or theory as to what happens..?

:cry:
Cheers
Decoy..

"Artisan Distiller" The art of making your own distillation apparatus for the
purpose of home distillation of spirits alcohol or ethanol for personal use.
User avatar
Decoy
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:51 am

Postby big worm » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:21 pm

decoy i ain't really got a clue. its time thats all i know, some age in bottles some age in wood kegs. both seem to work. i was thinking along the distress method. i know if you remove the air creating a vac. the air would be replaced from the wood with etho. or pressurise it and force the etho into the wood. a s/s container with a simple tire air valve and a pressure gauge. add pressure with bike pump, vac...well i have a vac pump for a/c work :) but i guess a simple home vac could be rigged. side by side tests would have to be run. its just an idea anyways ....i had a thought
"It is wise to learn how to ferment local products that are cheap and abundant."
User avatar
big worm
 
Posts: 2064
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:44 pm

Postby Mud » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:27 pm

Why would oak rot in alcohol? Alcohol is a preservative and white oak is pretty resistant anyway. Liquor picks up flavor & smell from wood just like any other maceration.

When you say "has anyone studied it" do you mean lab analysis? Punkin did a side by side and found changing temperature slowed the process. tater swears by it. Next time I need to age something I'm going to compare.

BTW, I just looked at that thread over at HD. A bunch of posts are gone, including Punkin's and I think Aidas's. Both were negative toward the process. Looks like they got the axe recently.

-Mud
Specialization is for Kiwi.
Artisan Distilling Book
User avatar
Mud
 
Posts: 4338
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:10 pm
Location: The wilds of PA, USA
Equipment type: Keg based pot - sometimes propane powered but mostly electric

Postby pintoshine » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:29 pm

It's all about a phenomenon called osmotic pressure.
The tannins, caramel, vanillas and other stuff water and alcohol soluble, will migrate from where it is concentrated to where it is not. It is like cutting and onion. The scent (chemicals) radiate because there is a miscible solvent ready to accept their presence until the concentrations are balanced. Need more oak and caramel, add more wood.
Distill safe. Make good cuts. Enjoy yourself. Give as much as you take. Have fun doing this incredibly hard work. Be a good example. It's your hobby.
User avatar
pintoshine
 
Posts: 3202
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:18 pm
Location: KY, USA
Equipment type: 58L 1.1 meter LM still.
110L Artisan Still Design Hybrid 4 plate with oil filled jacket.
20L copper pot

Postby big worm » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:37 pm

if i come across a s/s container i'd like to play with this.
"It is wise to learn how to ferment local products that are cheap and abundant."
User avatar
big worm
 
Posts: 2064
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:44 pm

Postby Mud » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:39 pm

So is osmotic pressure the reason for all flavor migration or does the alcohol act as a solvent...Forgive the lack of vocabulary.

It seems unlikely there is a way to speed up the migration.

-Mud
Specialization is for Kiwi.
Artisan Distilling Book
User avatar
Mud
 
Posts: 4338
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:10 pm
Location: The wilds of PA, USA
Equipment type: Keg based pot - sometimes propane powered but mostly electric

Postby big worm » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:10 am

i figured it would speed up the color factor more than anything to allow quicker bottling.
"It is wise to learn how to ferment local products that are cheap and abundant."
User avatar
big worm
 
Posts: 2064
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:44 pm

Postby pintoshine » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:11 am

osmotic pressure is mostly it. A good shake once in a while to get the concentrate stuff away from the surfaces never hurt. And oxygenation. If you are aging with oak in glass or plastic, it helps to open the lid once a month and let some air change places. I got my black walnut to oxidize quite well and the juglone turned very dark brown because of the new air once in a while.
Distill safe. Make good cuts. Enjoy yourself. Give as much as you take. Have fun doing this incredibly hard work. Be a good example. It's your hobby.
User avatar
pintoshine
 
Posts: 3202
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:18 pm
Location: KY, USA
Equipment type: 58L 1.1 meter LM still.
110L Artisan Still Design Hybrid 4 plate with oil filled jacket.
20L copper pot

Postby duds2u » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:14 am

Don't forget there are whole bunch of chemical processes going on as well. I think you can force the colouring and initial oaking fairly quickly but the rest take oxygen, copper (apparently it the catalyst to many of the reactions), a shit load of chemicals that we very carefully bring over from the wash and time. Two month old "barley squeezin's" may taste alright and be smooth but the same stuff 12 month old is a whole new ball game. Just don't force it too hard with too much oak.

Like I keep saying "Less oak, longer"
User avatar
duds2u
 
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:44 pm
Location: South East QLD, Australia
Equipment type: Spiral liebig pot still
Slant plate Bokabob with cross flow condenser

Postby punkin » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:18 am

Mud wrote:Why would oak rot in alcohol? Alcohol is a preservative and white oak is pretty resistant anyway. Liquor picks up flavor & smell from wood just like any other maceration.

When you say "has anyone studied it" do you mean lab analysis? Punkin did a side by side and found changing temperature slowed the process. tater swears by it. Next time I need to age something I'm going to compare.

BTW, I just looked at that thread over at HD. A bunch of posts are gone, including Punkin's and I think Aidas's. Both were negative toward the process. Looks like they got the axe recently.

-Mud


Thanks Mud, just went and reposted. Was that even the thread that Mike fucked up on in the first place?

I thought it was something in Novice?

I think decoy is talking about organic compounds in the alchohol not the wood...

edit; just fixed the horrible yellow eyeball busting bit. No sneaky backediting...
Image

Identified Shit Stirrer, upgraded to sociopath.

To the fashionable nationalists



http://www.stilldragon.com.au for all your distilling needs in Australia and New Zealand
User avatar
punkin
 
Posts: 11346
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:09 pm
Location: Northern NSW Orstrailya

Postby Decoy » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:20 am

I dont know, there seems to be alot of information on effects of distilling with copper v's stainles... and so on.. and being an important part of making a good scotch or bourbon is the aging on wood etc.. you would think there would be a bit more on the subject...

there are oils, esters and other bits in the liquid im just assuming its braking down or blending with the wood chemical etc.
the main thing i can see that would affect them after watching some docos on the subject is temp..

as they rotate the barrels storage from the attic to a cool lower location.

:?
Cheers
Decoy..

"Artisan Distiller" The art of making your own distillation apparatus for the
purpose of home distillation of spirits alcohol or ethanol for personal use.
User avatar
Decoy
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 1:51 am

Postby mikejwoodnz » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:40 pm

punkin wrote:
Mud wrote:Why would oak rot in alcohol? Alcohol is a preservative and white oak is pretty resistant anyway. Liquor picks up flavor & smell from wood just like any other maceration.

When you say "has anyone studied it" do you mean lab analysis? Punkin did a side by side and found changing temperature slowed the process. tater swears by it. Next time I need to age something I'm going to compare.

BTW, I just looked at that thread over at HD. A bunch of posts are gone, including Punkin's and I think Aidas's. Both were negative toward the process. Looks like they got the axe recently.

-Mud


Thanks Mud, just went and reposted. Was that even the thread that Mike fucked up on in the first place?

I thought it was something in Novice?

I think decoy is talking about organic compounds in the alchohol not the wood...


I didn't fuck it up - my post was on topic and concerned assisting ageing by carting my whisky with the added wood chips etc around in the boot of my car in a 20 litre "plastic" (being the offending part of the post) cube. Then the Mods jumped me so I pointed out that his post indicated that he was an immature fuck-wit and got barred. I just went and had a look and see that posts have been deleted and mods have edited theirs to put themselves in the best light. That retrospective editing is what is so appalling about HD although I have noted it here also.
My Terminal Cancer is now : maybe a little remission :-)
User avatar
mikejwoodnz
 
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:23 am
Location: Blenheim, New Zealand
Equipment type: 75 litre SS "Milk Can" Pot Still, Onion Head, 1.5m Copper Liebig, SS Fermenters, AirStills . . .

Postby CoopsOz » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:01 pm

mikejwoodnz wrote: That retrospective editing is what is so appalling about HD although I have noted it here also.


I haven't noticed it here but at HD, definitely. It can be rectified, I am a member of another phpBB forum that gives editing rights for only a minute or two after the post is entered. After that, tough titties. Not saying it's needed all I'm saying is there are options.
It is most absurdly said, in popular language, of any man, that he is disguised in liquor; for, on the contrary, most men are disguised by sobriety. ~Thomas de Quincy, Confessions of an English Opium-Eater, 1856
User avatar
CoopsOz
 
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:09 am
Location: Canberra

Next

Return to Materials

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest