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enzymes

If you are combining substance for the sake of looking into different properties, Tells about you approach and findings.

Re: enzymes

Postby jake_leg » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:04 am

Calcium orthophosphate is pretty much insoluble. Might be another option.
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Re: enzymes

Postby pintoshine » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:06 am

what acid and base would I use to get that salt?
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Re: enzymes

Postby jake_leg » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:23 am

I think calcium hydroxide and phosphoric acid will do it. I have phosphoric acid from the hydroponics place but home brew shops sell food grade.

Calcium oxide will probably do it too.
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Re: enzymes

Postby pintoshine » Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:35 am

phosphoric acid. Of course. Never considered that. I'll have to locate a supplier.
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Re: enzymes

Postby Abussive » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:20 am

On the solubility of the neutralised acid salts....... if you're going to distill it, it doesn't actually matter if it's completely dissolved or completely precipitated. The salt is ionic and won't volatilise at all (at least not at the temperatures in a still).
All bets are off, of course, if you allow an exposed heater to get temperatures >>100C.

So the cheapest and safest (citric acid / limewater) will do the job just fine.
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Re: enzymes

Postby jake_leg » Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:58 am

True enough. Citric acid is certainly safer than 75% phosphoric.

The solution is not neutral though. There is excess acid, so which acid you use will make a difference to the taste. You'll get some esters with organic acids. For whiskey perhaps lactic acid would give the best flavour.

I must say I have used citric acid to adjust pH for enzymes when mashing corn and barley and it seemed to taste fine. Latterly I have used phosphoric and that has been fine too. I haven't tried them out in any systematic way.

IIRC calcium / phosphate buffering is the reason malt mash is acidic so phosphoric acid should be fairly harmless in terms of flavour. (?) I think calcium phosphate precipitating out is the reason why adding gypsum to mash brings the pH down. Maybe those phosphates aren't there when there is no malt in the mash. Unless you add phosphoric acid :)

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... pH_control

They used to put it in coke too. Virgin cola still gives that my-teeth-are-dissolving feeling that I recollect from childhood :roll:
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Re: enzymes

Postby likkerluvver » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:38 am

pintoshine wrote:I will be offering these soon.

Thanks for the valuable info. :8)

I look forward to getting some of these - especially the High Temp Amylase. I'll be watching this space for the how/when to order them - been searching for them for some time. With this rate of conversion, I bet they will be popular.

I have a bag of feed oats and a bag of feed wheat sitting in my basement, which were going to be the basis of UJSSM-type sour mashes. Sounds like this would be a good/better route, since I want to avoid using malt barley for conversion in order to sample whiskey made wholly from each type of grain.

Taste comparisons are the remaining question. Some maintain that there is extra "spiciness" - or a noticeable change in taste/character when non-malted grain is used. Anyone care to comment?
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Re: enzymes

Postby jake_leg » Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:54 am

I definitely thought unmalted barley mashed with enzymes was spicier than malted barley. More like rye than malt.

Beta glucanase might come in handy for you especially with those oats.
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Re: enzymes

Postby likkerluvver » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:04 am

Thanks JL. Sounds like a good plan.
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Re: enzymes

Postby Abussive » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:14 am

jake_leg wrote:True enough. Citric acid is certainly safer than 75% phosphoric.

The solution is not neutral though. There is excess acid, so which acid you use will make a difference to the taste. You'll get some esters with organic acids. For whiskey perhaps lactic acid would give the best flavour.

I must say I have used citric acid to adjust pH for enzymes when mashing corn and barley and it seemed to taste fine. Latterly I have used phosphoric and that has been fine too. I haven't tried them out in any systematic way.

IIRC calcium / phosphate buffering is the reason malt mash is acidic so phosphoric acid should be fairly harmless in terms of flavour. (?) I think calcium phosphate precipitating out is the reason why adding gypsum to mash brings the pH down. Maybe those phosphates aren't there when there is no malt in the mash. Unless you add phosphoric acid :)

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... pH_control

They used to put it in coke too. Virgin cola still gives that my-teeth-are-dissolving feeling that I recollect from childhood :roll:


I think we're saying the same thing but differently here:-

Pint's first post said that he used citric acid to lower the pH of the starch dispersion/solution: first for the high-temp enzyme, and then, to a little lower pH for the second enzyme. Even then, the pH was merely 5.0

But I got the impression that rather than use the sugar solution "as-is" and at pH 5.0 for an immediate fermentation, he wanted to prepare a "stock" of sugar solution for storage and later use, so he neutralised it (by titration to neutral) and then concentrated the sugar content by boiling it down.

If the intention is to ferment straight after the enzymes reactions, then virtually no pH adjustment, nor sugar concentration via boiling is required.
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Re: enzymes

Postby jake_leg » Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:24 am

Ah yes, I forgot that. I was just thinking about the mashing. I have never boiled wort. It does make sense to me that Pint would want to neutralise before boiling the wort.

AFAIK you don't do that when making beer but there are probably specific reasons why that I don't understand.
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Re: enzymes

Postby pintoshine » Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:36 am

Yes, I wanted a neutral syrup so I could test it for flavor. Also I wanted to make syrup to be able to test the fluidity. High glucose syrup like DE42 and high maltose syrup usually isn't very sweet. So I was interested in the sweetness of the syrup. It is extremely sweet. There is still a slight after taste of the calcium citrate. I should have let it precipitate before I boiled it but it was late and I am sometimes impatient.
If I were using this with grain, which is the next test, I would be monitoring the ph all along the way until it got to the gelatinization temperature. Sometimes when making beer the wort acidifies just from the grain and the ph may have to be adjusted up instead of down. The last time I used 100% malted rye it settled at 5.4 all by itself.
If I were using backset I would probably have to increase the ph a lot. I have seen backset lower the ph down near 3. That is seriously low for the enzymes even though yeast just keep right on going. lime water works very good for this to and usually yields calcium acetate and calcium lactate.
I might get around to this today. I wish I had a really large pyrex beaker. Also storms might be an issue today.
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Re: enzymes

Postby Abussive » Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:32 am

Stay safe from the storms. We're looking forward to hearing a lot more about these durned enzime critters!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_citrate
Refers to acid and sour tastes but not bitterness. Wonder if some by-product from the enzyme reaction is causing that? If the bitterness goes away after filtering a future batch, at least you'll know that it's caused by an insoluble compound, which is useful progress!

Because this is probably a substantial step forward for the art, anyone Stateside that can get HPLC samples of your stuff analysed would be doing everyone a favour. Big Time. Volunteers welcome.

:)
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Re: enzymes

Postby punkin » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:50 am

rockchucker22 wrote:I too have been playing around with enzymes. It has made ag much simpler. What I'm courious about is the high temp alpha, is it different than regular alpha? What is the temp difference between the two?With beta I always add at room temp or around 60f. I buy the enzymes 1 lb at a time, this seems to be enough for about 6 months of regular distilling.



Your temp question was answered in the original post from pint.

He said he kept it between 79 and 82. My high temp enzyme works best at 100c, that's boiling point of water in whatever that may be in farenheight.
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Re: enzymes

Postby jake_leg » Fri May 03, 2013 1:48 pm

Pint, any progress on USPS shipping? On the enzymash calculator, the cheapest option is UPS ground but it's a bit pricey for the smaller quantities.
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