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clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby kiwi » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:32 pm

I'll be following your results with interest. $400 seems reasonable especially if you only have to pay it once.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby stillwagon » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:05 am

Yeah, the thought there for me has been how to maintain the culture in its purity. I would imagine it would be prone to infection and mutation much like a yeast. If that be the case then it would be an ongoing expense with out a small lab set up.... Yeast is a small investment in comparison. I have thought of asking Dr. Cone at Lallemand to see if it was something they would culture and sell if the TTB was ok with its use.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby manu de hanoi » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:57 am

maintaining the culture could be a pain, perhaps your are just supposed to get a tiny bit from the freezer grow it and then inseminate, that way it's more repeatable.
Perhaps i'd try to grow some from part of the initial buy and then refreeze them and be set for a while.
By the way what rum did arroyo make to make his patent so famous on the forums ? Was his rum *that* good/special ?
I suggest to try to build esters by refluxing high abv for a long time. that seemed to work for me.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby kiwi » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:58 pm

manu de hanoi wrote:maintaining the culture could be a pain, perhaps your are just supposed to get a tiny bit from the freezer grow it and then inseminate,

:doh:

inoculate. Don't inseminate anyone with that.

By looking at the name, I suspect this bug is supposed to throw those pineapple esters from butyric acid? or does it produce butyric acid which is a precursor for ethyl butyrate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_butyrate

I'd been looking into butyrates because some of the Brettanomyces I've got can apparently process butyric acid into those esters.

I'm sure a local lab could probably help you out as well, all they need is basic lab gear and a good cold freezer.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby stillwagon » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:20 am

"The bacteria produces butyric, acetic, propionic, and caproic acids, these then react with the alcohol to produce the desirable esters." I have a few messages out to a couple of microbiologists, and the lab that sells the culture to give me more information. I did hear back from a PhD in yeast science and fermentation. He was very interested and will be following my results. He said it sounded very interesting and potentially promising. So I will give it a shot after I hear from the lab and the other guys I have contacted. It will at least be an interesting experiment.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby stillwagon » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:19 pm

I found a few more labs that sell the bacteria. One in England, a couple in Asia, and another private firm in the US. I have an inquiry with the US firm.

An interesting side note is that this bacteria is also sold as a probiotic in capsule form, for the regulation of normal gut activities and to help control diarrhea. It is non-pathogenic and is a normal inhabitant of the human gut in the mid intestinal region.

I was also given a two step yeast protocol that uses a low alcohol tolerant/high ester producing yeast In the first part of fermentation, This yeast dies out at about 2% ABV. Then the second yeast is pitched to finish out the ferment. I will let you know how this goes as well.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:28 pm

stillwagon wrote:I was also given a two step yeast protocol that uses a low alcohol tolerant/high ester producing yeast In the first part of fermentation, This yeast dies out at about 2% ABV. Then the second yeast is pitched to finish out the ferment. I will let you know how this goes as well.

I'd sure be interested in hearing how that one turns out. Please keep us informed.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby stillwagon » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:55 pm

I found a lab that sells the culture for $8. They will also produce the inoculum for me as I do not have a lab and a CO2 incubator to grow out the culture. But at least they are working with me instead of thinking I was nuts as the other lab seemed to. This one works with industry and is privately owned. I will let you know how it goes...
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby Moscca » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:03 am

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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby stillwagon » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:41 pm

ATCC is way too expensive. There are other labs that sell it for under $10.00. They also say their C. butryicum strain is for research use only. You have to license it through them to use it for any other purpose, way too much red tape.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby stillwagon » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:44 pm

Fermentation went well. Almost done with the distillation.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby Jaybird » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:35 am

So are you starting a dunder pit or are you just going to add it to the ferment? Is the lab going to sell this to you every time you want it? Are they willing to ship it? I have customers that would like to start a dunder pit and I really think they would be interested in buying a vial if available.

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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby Kapea » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:08 am

Interesting fermenter you've got there. Looks kinda like a commercial reach-in soda pop cooler that's been retasked.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby stillwagon » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:22 pm

The bacteria is available through ATCC and will sell it for research purposes or license it for commercial use. I just bought another 6 cultures for my next couple of runs.

You really need to read the Arroyo patent to understand and be able to reproduce the process. You will need a temperature controlled incubator and fermenter just to start with.

A dunder pit is used in place of the bacteria. The bacteria and the fermentation protocol that Arroyo came up with was to replace the use of the dunder pit. So to put the bacteria in the dunder pit is a bit self-defeating.

The fermenter is a former milk cooler from a dairy. I like it because I can use the jacketed coils to maintain the temp on my fermentation to within a couple of degrees. The bacteria and the yeast have different ideal temps, so the goal is to heat a happy medium between the two. This fermenter makes that possible for me in a 500 gallon volume.

The picture is of the yield. 35 gallons of hearts at about 75% and the tails are in the 1/2 gallon jars, to be blended in prior to it all going in the barrel.
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Re: clostridium saccharobutyricum bacteria

Postby Kapea » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:08 pm

No way to make a bacteria mother and repitch?

5 gallon carboys (plural!) full of rum! A pirate's dream, no doubt!
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