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Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

These usually have the means for returning the spirits to the column and usually allow metering of the take off to help in the reflux.

Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby NineInchNails » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:01 pm

I contacted a spring manufacturer to see if they could make some SPP for me and they pretty much said no (nearly $1.00 per :shock: ), but they sent me some samples to give me an idea of what they could make VERY easily and for a lower cost. They said that they could make these springs using copper too. The springs that were sent are 1/4” OD x 0.29" long with a wire diameter of 0.03" but can be made to ANY specification.

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I'm seriously considering this for packing, but was wondering what you guys thought. I'm wondering if the 'prismatic' aspect of SPP is critical to the function ... for instance esential to create voids to discourage choking or something along those lines.

These sample springs do NOT stick together in ANY way. After handling these things I can tell that I could have a whole bucket of them, hose them down, swish em around, shake the bucket, drain them and none will interlock with each other.

20,000 of these would be approx $340 (0.017¢ each). I'll see if they can shoot me a better price and shop around too because that seems pretty high for basic springs spat out of a machine :| From what I've read SPP can cost around $80 per liter so this is less than 1/2 the price of SPP at the quoted price.

SPP ~ Spiral Prismatic Packing
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby stillton » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:55 am

looking at the SPP i would suggest that it would spread the falling reflux in a better way. the lowest points in a normal spring is at all time parallel.
but then again, I personally believe that surface area is much more important. even if liquid isnt falling on every pice of the packing, the raising steam is.
that means i choose simple pot-scrubbers over the commercial stuff.
if i built a 4" column, or a continuous distiller feeding mash in to it, maybe i would reconsider.

here is an interesting approach using pot-scrubbers http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... google.com
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby NineInchNails » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:49 am

Thanks for that link. I've seen that page before, but had a heck of a time finding it again. I saved it for future reference.

That was the same packing that Odessit commented about on his last post on this page. I'll quote what he said about it:

SPP excels the cutted stainless scrubbies on all indexes. For example, evenness of piling. The cutted stainless scrubbies is laid unevenly, a column chokes and works bad.


I can imagine that the cut scrubbers are flimsy and the spirals can interlock creating dense spots causing restriction wherever this occurs. I can see that this can NEVER happen by fiddling with the sample springs I received … they just can not interlock. These are steel or stainless steel though so I imagine that copper springs are more pliable unless they use are more rigid/stronger copper wire. These steel springs cannot interlock even when I smash them together as hard as I can squeeze with my fingers. These sample springs are slightly out of specification (slightly larger diameter wire, slightly smaller OD spiral and a tad too long). kol2nas stated on this page what the ideal dimensions of SPP should be. I have no idea where he read this, but I assume it was from one of the Russian threads:

Measurements for the optimal performance must be:
diameter of packing 1/10 to 1/12 diameter of column
diameter of SS wire 1/10 diameter of packing


That is precisely why I was wondering if a circular spring of the exact same dimensions as SPP (wire diameter, spring diameter, spring length) would work similar to SPP. I'm sure the prismatic aspect of the SPP would be ideal, but critical enough to its function to not use a circular spiral? As you've stated there is practically no portion of SPP that does not provide a horizontal plane for the reflux to become separated regardless how the SPP is laying. I'm just wondering if this 'prismatic' quality if just one step forward to optimize performance in theory or if it is critical.

I've sent a PM to Odessit about this. Hopefully he responds. Even if Odessit has a vested interest in SPP he seems to be an honest guy. Someone had to try regular spirals prior to making a much more difficult prismatic spiral.

Copper & stainless mesh is definitely WAY cheaper than any spring or SPP so I'm sure I'll use it. I just like the sound of a loose packing that can be poured out, easily washed, stored if need be and poured right back into the column.
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby stillton » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:34 am

I can understand Odessit opinion on evenness of piling. but to say it beats SS scrubbers on all aspects, seems a bit drastic. as i said before, IMHO the single most important factor is surface area. compared to scrubbers there is just no way in hell SPP can beat it. just looking at it makes you understand why. no complicated math is needed. that doesn't mean i think SPP is shit. only that i dont believe that SPP beats scrubbers "on all indexes". if SPP gives a better overall performance in a 2-3" column i would be surprised, but i would probably not buy 200$ worth of packing when i could obtain the same performance only by adding an inch or two to the column length anyway.

it would be very interesting to see a comparing test between scrubbers, cut up scrubbers (like on the .ru site), SPP and springs.

my view may be a bit tainted by my beliefs.. i find proud in making a product superior of the commercial stuff with low cost gear. if i were to build a big commercial distillery, i would probably not even consider using cheap low tech stuff even if i knew it COULD give me better performance for a fraction of the cost.
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby NineInchNails » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:52 am

Actually Odessit said that SPP beats "cutted stainless scrubbies" (scrubbers cut into individual spirals) on all indexes as a direct comparison to SPP, but I know what you mean.

Odessit shows an example of the purity he supposedly achieves using SPP on this page.

SPP it the really wonderful packing. Right now I get an alcohol 98.6% vol (27.4°C). It is 97.16% at 20°C. Azeotrope.

HETP=10-20 mm


While this may not be a HUGE leap or a leap worthy of spending $650 on packing for a 3" column ... I'll certainly use mesh before paying that much :D
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby ZeroGee » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:21 pm

NineInchNails wrote:Odessit shows an example of the purity he supposedly achieves using SPP on this page.

SPP it the really wonderful packing. Right now I get an alcohol 98.6% vol (27.4°C). It is 97.16% at 20°C. Azeotrope.

HETP=10-20 mm
While Odessit may be right about the efficiency of his SPP packing, his 97.16% azeotrope leads me to believe his measurements may be a bit off.

stillton wrote:...if SPP gives a better overall performance in a 2-3" column i would be surprised, but i would probably not buy 200$ worth of packing when i could obtain the same performance only by adding an inch or two to the column length anyway.
I agree; I'll stay with copper mesh and scrubbers.
Age, in and of itself, does not confer wisdom.
Instead, it provides a list of mistakes you hope, profoundly, never to repeat.
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby manu de hanoi » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:20 am

0.03" seems thick to me, however I like the spacing between the coils that current spp doesnt have. I'd give it a try, perhaps you could order less that 20 000 pcs ? if the improvement is as dramatic as Dog master suggests 50 cm of such packing should be enough to see a difference (if necessary fill the rest of the column with normal packing)
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby NineInchNails » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:35 am

manu de hanoi wrote:0.03" seems thick to me, however I like the spacing between the coils that current spp doesnt have. I'd give it a try, perhaps you could order less that 20 000 pcs ? if the improvement is as dramatic as Dog master suggests 50 cm of such packing should be enough to see a difference (if necessary fill the rest of the column with normal packing)

Jancio53 PMed me a link that appears to be an auction listing for SPP. 80,00 zł per liter. 80 Polish zlotys = 30.1910 US dollars + shipping.

He also sent me this link

Thanks again Jancio53!

I've been playing around with some translators, but its slow going.

This SPP doesn't appear to have been etched, but hell the hard work is alaready done. Etching is cheap and simple for anyone.
Attachments
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SPP 02.jpg
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SPP 01.jpg
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby stillton » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:48 am

those are a lot smaller then i imagined them for some reason..
and at that price, this is starting to look really interesting.
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby acfixer69 » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:40 pm

NIN
Following with interest for my column. Tried to do Dogs Master machine with some mig wire I have but came out funky and inconsistent. :oops: Keep us in the loop
AC
My 4" column build
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby manu de hanoi » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:44 pm

acfixer69 wrote:NIN
Following with interest for my column. Tried to do Dogs Master machine with some mig wire I have but came out funky and inconsistent. :oops: Keep us in the loop
AC

same here, will work more on the spinning head today, I think it needs the right slope, plus the wire tension matters too.
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby minime » Sun May 01, 2011 12:45 am

manu de hanoi wrote:same here, will work more on the spinning head today, I think it needs the right slope, plus the wire tension matters too.
great_success.JPG


:roflmao: Love that photo Manu! Once again you've proven you are the KING of cheese :roflmao:
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby Dog's Master » Sun May 01, 2011 1:27 am

manu de hanoi wrote:same here, will work more on the spinning head today, I think it needs the right slope, plus the wire tension matters too.


Manu! A friend of mine in alcohol!
Newer mind - yours little troubles are the base of a huge success! To adjust a tension, take a spring with two coils. One of them must be screwed. The second coil is to fit the wire. If tension seems to be less than you need, drive in yours screw on a bit longer distance.

The same thing with a slope - start with a little one. Also you must take care about good, polished surface of mandrel.

If the cutting method is too complicated to you, it can be easily done with the help of drill and meat grinder array.

Good luck with SPP. Here in Odessa all the advanced moonshiners do so.
Even without cutting it will be better than scrubbers, much more better!

Good luck, yours DM.
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby manu de hanoi » Sun May 01, 2011 2:19 am

Dog's Master wrote: The second coil is to fit the wire. If tension seems to be less than you need, drive in yours screw on a bit longer distance.

The same thing with a slope - start with a little one. Also you must take care about good, polished surface of mandrel.
.

Thanks DM, I think the spring evens the tension, but the right tension depends on the resistance of the wire roll.
Any tips on how to prime the system ? I mean how to attach the wire to the spindle head before starting the device ?
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Re: Somewhat Similar To SPP - Spiral Prismatic Packing

Postby Dog's Master » Sun May 01, 2011 2:28 am

Dear Manu
It is simple
1 Pass the wire in the spring
2 Tighten the wire on the mandrel
3. Pull the spring
Slowly start coil SPP

Luck! Yours DM
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