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Holzbranntwein

This is for the "What in the world is that?" category. You have something different, something odd or just putting things together in a different way?. Tell us about it and let us comment, laugh, or puke....

Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Pikey » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:16 pm

Y1969 wrote:I like to read European newspapers............, sometimes you want imported feces. ...................... scandals such as "grandfather-transvestite gave birth to a grandson-addict".....................


Love it :8)

I have often wished my brain worked well enough to "Speak foreign" - but it doesn't :roll:
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Kareltje » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:22 pm

I have been browsing and searching with several keywords.
Holzbranntwein, hydrolysis, Madison wood sugar, Holzverzuckerung.
I can not reach all hits, but found some interesting studies about hydrolysing wood and bagasse.

Madison wood sugar
https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/downloads/cj82kc276

https://books.google.nl/books?id=hiLjbN ... ar&f=false

holzverzuckerung verfahren

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzverzuckerung

http://www.chids.de/dachs/praktikumspro ... ruppe9.pdf

All processes I found mention quite weak sulfuric acid but at high (150 - 180 dgr C) temperatures and corresponding high (8 bar) pressures. During very short (5 - 10 min) times, I must admit, but not possible for us amateurs. It seems hydrochloric acids can be used at lower temperatures, but I found no real data about that.

It seems that there is recent Dutch reasearch about this principle, including reclaiming used sulfuric acid, but as this partly is done via bacteria that reduce H2SO4 to H2S and subsequent burning of the sulfide into sulfate, this is not doable at home.

It all is very interesting, but my only hope is that the hydrolysation can be done too at lower (100 dgr C) temperature during a longer time (3 hours). Drawback will be that reusing the acid will be almost impossible.
Maybe in the former Soviet Union or nowadays Russia there is more experience.
It is on my to do list.
First I will do a regular rum run, then finish the experiment with milk and then I will go on with acid.

(I should have thought about the original plural of thesis. :oops:
On the other hand: the original rules are not always used. The plural of datum in Dutch is either data (information) or datums (dates), but in English data is considered singular.)
Kareltje
 
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Y1969 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:33 am

Several good books on hydrolysis production were published in the USSR. The only thing you have to recognize the book, because there is not text, but the image. The quality of the scan is good.
http://booksonchemistry.com/books/pishe ... i1989.djvu
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Kareltje » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:18 pm

The file can be opened with Sumatra PDF reader. But then I have to read Russian, so this will take another study.

Today I took 250 gr of dry, old chainsawdust of oak and beech. With 1.250 ml of heads I barely got it covered. Tomorrow I will check if this fluid is absorbed by the wood.

More and more the acid process seems less and less feasible for home application.
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Y1969 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:30 pm

Colleague! I saw a glass pan of heat-resistant glass in Ikeya. This solution is the most optimal. And not expensive. Something about a thousand or one and a half thousand rubles. How much is this? 15 euros? Or not in Ikeya? In some big Moscow mall.
The most suitable is to brew wood in acid.
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Kareltje » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:21 pm

I looked at the site of IKEA, but did not find a glass pan. :(

As said: yesterday I took 250 grams of old, dry sawdust. The volume was about 1 liter and it took 5 times 250 ml to soak the dry sawdust.
Recalculating to sulfuric acid it would be only 2 % w/w of H2SO4.
But then again: a feed of 1 kg of dry wood would need 5 litres of 2 % acid and result in about 500 gr sugar. (If successful!) That is about 10 %. After fermentation this would give a wash of about 6 %ABV alcohol. And quite acid too. Or it takes some serious neutralizing.

This seems contradictory to the original wikipedia-lemma.
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Y1969 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:24 pm

I do not see any problems. Go to any gardening store and buy a kilogram of garden lime. You have sour soils in Holland, lime should be sold.
---
Speaking of national Dutch dishes. I've seen through Discovery that you have soup served in large porcelain tureen. It is also acid resistant. Or soup in such dishes served in Belgium? I do not remember.
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Kareltje » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:43 pm

Y1969 wrote:I do not see any problems. Go to any gardening store and buy a kilogram of garden lime. You have sour soils in Holland, lime should be sold.
---
Speaking of national Dutch dishes. I've seen through Discovery that you have soup served in large porcelain tureen. It is also acid resistant. Or soup in such dishes served in Belgium? I do not remember.

The soils in Holland are quite different from the soils in my part of the Netherlands! Or in any other part of the Netherlands.
But lime is sold and neutralizing sulfuric acid is no problem at all.

A porcelain tureen can be found, or an enamel or ss pan too. Heating to 100 dgr C is no problem, not even for 3 hours. But 250 gr of dry sawdust took 1.25 L of heads to soak it. That would mean 5 litres of 2 % sulfuric acid for 1 kg of dry sawdust, resulting in about 500 gr of sugar in 5 litres of acid mash. Or neutral mash, after adding lime. And detoxing, maybe.
I guess it can be done, but I doubt if it has any benefits over making fruit or grain mashes.

There is some cultural difference between the Netherlands and Belgium. I was born in the south of the Netherlands, so I understand and like the Belgians. And I do not like the people from Holland.
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Re: Holzbranntwein

Postby Kareltje » Thu May 03, 2018 5:50 am

Not Holsbranntwein, but rather birchbrandy: https://news.sky.com/story/japanese-sci ... d-11354797
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