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Jenever, genever or peket

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Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Kareltje » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:41 pm

Although the recipes for this drinks are proven and tested, we have to find our own recipe.
On Wikipedia I found this (translated):

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenever

Jenever/genever (and peket in French-speaking Belgium)
The traditional process starts with barley that is malted in the usual way. Other grains, like wheat, rye and corn are added and the mixture is brewed in the way like whiskey mashes are malted, so without the killing of the enzymes at 78 dgr C.
This mash is fermented in the usual way, and when it is finished the resulting beer is distilled.

The result of the first distillation is called "ruwnat" (raw fluid) of about 20 %ABV.
The slops were sold for fodder for pigs, which made the process economical sound.

The second distillation resulted in the so called "enkelnat" (single wet) of about 30 %ABV.

The third distillation resulted in the so called "bestnat"(best wet) or "moutwijn" (malt wine) of about 46,5 %ABV.

I never saw mentioning of heads, but I guess they are separated in the third run. Tails are never mentioned during the making of the malt wine, but they are not necessary.

After that, it gets complicated.
When the malt wine is distilled again, one gets "distilled malt wine" at 75 %ABV.
When the malt wine is distilled with juniper berries, one gets "gebeide jenever", a word that could be translated as "berried jenever" or "jenever with berries". Supposing that to berry is a verb meaning to treat with berries.
There is or was also a jenever that was called "dubbel gebeid": "double berried". But what the double means, I do not know.
Mixing of the different distillates makes several kinds of jenever. The result can also be matured in oak casks.

Also several other herbs can be used, depending on the distiller and the region. Especially in Belgium there are regional differences.

According to this process, "jonge jenever" = young jenever is made according to this process and "oude jenever" = old jenever is made by maturing in casks.

According to my teacher of chemistry in high school the old jenever was stored in underground, masoned tanks. Which were located close to the tanks for the collection of the urine of the workers. Het left it to our own imagination what caused the yellow colour (and taste?) of the old jenever. He added, that during WWII the Germans had drunk all the old jenever, so since that time there was no real old jenever anymore.
The Wikipedia-site reaches the same conclusion, but on other grounds. :P

According to the rules of the EU, jenever can only be made in the Netherlands, Belgium and adjacent parts of Germany and France. Jonge jenever and oude jenever can only be made in the Netherlands and Belgium.
But of course: the rules of the EU apply only in the EU.
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Kareltje » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:15 pm

As you see: there are a lot of ways to modify the process. I start to mention a few:
1) the grain bill. Of course one needs malted grain, but different mixtures of barley, wheat, rye an corn are mentioned.
2) the brewing. The several steps in brewing are used to get a good conversion of starch to sugar. There is some discussion about the highest step: not denaturing the enzymes enables the ongoing conversion during fermentation.
3) the fermenting. The yeast, temperature and other variables can influence the taste, of course.
4) the running. Judging by the percentages one would conclude that the runs are done without cuts and to the very end.
5) the distillation. Starting from the malt wine or pure ethanol there are a lot of ways to jenever.
6) the botanicals. There are several combinations of botanicals, according to taste.
7) the maturing. Whether and how jenever is matured, is very variable.

Then there is a gradual difference from jenever to gin.
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Y1969 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:51 am

I have long wanted to make a column with plates. On the packed column, naturally, no aromatic substances enter the distillate. So we'll have to design again.
Colleague, see if there are amateur pages of this subject. Dutch was not very difficult, I almost understand it. The only one - there are a lot of vowels.
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Kareltje » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:19 pm

Y1969 wrote:I have long wanted to make a column with plates. On the packed column, naturally, no aromatic substances enter the distillate. So we'll have to design again.
Colleague, see if there are amateur pages of this subject. Dutch was not very difficult, I almost understand it. The only one - there are a lot of vowels.

You are smarter than I am: Russian is still a mystery to me! But maybe I am lazy and trust the translator too much! :cry:
I entered the words jenever maken in the search line of Google and got several hits:

www.stookforum.nl/thread/hoe-jenever-maken/

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenever

http://www.drinkwijzer.nl/dranken/jenever.php

https://binnenstebuiten.kro-ncrv.nl/fra ... ijk-recept
(This is a small report, with a lot of small talk. I did not yet see it, but can pick the usefull parts if you like! About a very old recipe from 1630!)
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Kareltje » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:00 pm

I looked up a recipe I did some 30 years ago, in my earlier period of distilling.
I am not sure if I read my notes of that time correctly, but it seems I have done the following.
1) Made a mash of 2 kg flour of corn, 2 kg flour of rye and 2 kg flour of malted barley, brewed this (45-55-65-75 dgr C) and made 19 litres of it.
2) Let it ferment for 3 weeks.
3) Distilled it to about 12 litres of 7 %ABV (?? At the time I doubted the outcome.)
4) Distilled again into 4,33 l of 25 %ABV.
5) Distilled again and got 100 ml heads @ 87 %ABV, 960 ml hearts @ 82 %ABV and 440 ml tails @ 10 %ABV.
6) Took 460 ml hearts and 6 gr juniper, diluted to 50 % and distilled again. I diluted the result to 1 litre. This got blind, just like a good ouzo gets blind. (At that time I did not know that was a mark of quality!) Filtering twice did not help. I considered this the young jenever.
7) Took 500 ml and 9 gr juniper, 3 gr coriander, 0,12 gr angelica root, 0,2 gr anis seeds and 0,04 gr cumin, Diluted with 500 ml water and let it macerate for 3 days. Then I distilled and got 618 ml @ 63 %ABV. Diluted this with tea of licorice and water to about 1 litre. This I considered old jenever.

At that time I only had an iron still with a large riser, so I must have distilled with the botanicals in the pot. The amounts are very small, but the important issue are the ratios, of course.

Later I also made a esprit de genièvre: a very concentrated juniper alcohol to be mixed with pure alcohol. For that I took 30 gr juniper with 100 ml @ 91 %ABV. But I can not find how I used it, althuogh I once did. (I still have the bottle, but do not dare to open it: there are some black shadows floating in it.)

Another recipe I saw:
2,5 kg malt of barley, 1 kg rye plus 2 kg barley. Made up to 25 litres.
Brewed at: 10 min @ 52 dgrC, 40 min @ 63 dgrC, 20 min @ 75 dgrC and 3 min @ 78 dgrC (I would skip the last step!). Run twice to 55 %ABV, dilute to 45 %ABV in 2,6 litres.
Add 20 gr juniper, 8 gr coriander, 1 gr root of angelica, 1,5 gr cassia, 3 gr apricot kernels (Be carefull: cyanide!), 1,2 gr cubeb pepper, 0,33 gr calamus.
This seems to move in the direction of gin.

More experienced members like Odin and der wo tell about the difference in taste between botanicals in the boiler and in the gin box. I do not think I am experienced in this field, so I stand aside.
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Y1969 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:06 am

Colleague! I correctly understood that the distillation is conducted with an ordinary alumbic? No packed columns with two or three hundred theoretical plates? To get into the distillate fragrant fusel oils from fermentation of barley?
If I will be distilling on my column - I do not care what will be as raw material. Whether it's noble barley or cowhit-I'll still get chromatographically pure alcohol on the way out.
How important is it to leave fusel oils, the scent of whiskey?
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Kareltje » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:32 pm

Y1969 wrote:Colleague! I correctly understood that the distillation is conducted with an ordinary alumbic? No packed columns with two or three hundred theoretical plates? To get into the distillate fragrant fusel oils from fermentation of barley?
If I will be distilling on my column - I do not care what will be as raw material. Whether it's noble barley or cowhit-I'll still get chromatographically pure alcohol on the way out.
How important is it to leave fusel oils, the scent of whiskey?

Hi mate,
I had a small iron still with a quite large riser, that gave me some passive reflux.
But judging by the percentages it seems a bit like the distilling of Irish whiskey. They use pot stills and distill right to the end to get all the alcohol and the grain taste.
According to the recipe, you will start with a mash of about 6 %ABV and, when you run this a few times with a pot still to the very end, it indeed will take some 3 successive runs to get 40 or 50 %ABV.

When you get pure alcohol out of your still, independent of the feed, you need some tricks to make jenever. In fact: jonge jenever is nowadays mainly made of neutral alcohol. According to the Wikipedia jonge jenever should contain a maximum (!) of 38 % malt wine, and there is no minimum ( :roll: ), so many jonge jenevers do not contain any malt wine at all. :mg:
When you macerate a lot of juniper berries in alcohol, you can get a concentrate of juniper. I understood that the specific taste of the macerate depends on the alcohol content. A high ethanol content dissolves more harsh tastes, a lower content extracts more soft tastes. But a macerate has some colour, of course.
Another method is to make a distillate with juniper berries either macerated in the boiler of vapourized in a gin box. But for that you have to have a suitable still. Then you can make a clear concentrate.

But mind: if you have a lot of the juniper flavour, the drink can go blind when it is cold or diluted. Just like ouzo or pastis will do. I personally would take that as a sign of quality.
Edit:
To answer your final question: how important the taste of grain is: that entirely depends on your own preferences.
Reading the wikipedia I would say, that Dutch jenever tends to be rather neutral, jenever of Belgique (F) is more botanical and jenever of België (NL) is more grainy.
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Tdick » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:42 pm

Kareltje wrote:Although the recipes for this drinks are proven and tested, we have to find our own recipe..

NOW you tell me :doh:

I have been researching making a gin using a sugarhead with wheat, corn and barley in my pot still using single run with thumper, then macerate and rerun with thumper again. So I expected to have a real "chew" to it.

Which I narrowed down to what (I think) Genever or Old Style Gin was about.
So I've been studying Genever. Problem was in my State the ABC stores do not sell Genever or Old Style Gin.
So I had no idea what my target was about.
Last week I traveled out of state and found ONE bottle of this:
Bols Genever.jpg

And I have a couple of problems.
1. I don't taste any botanicals at all.
2. It just doesn't taste very good to me. :shock:

So I believe I'm back to making continuing to distill it down to a more neutral taste then following a Proven Gin recipe.
I even thought about macerating botanicals in a small jar of the Bols to see how it would taste.
I appreciated any insight you can offer.
:mg:
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Kareltje » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:25 pm

Well, I only made a jenever about 30 years ago. Soon after that I stopped distilling and only 4 years ago I took it up again.

You have found a fancy bottle, but even if I had seen it before, I doubt if my taste is of any value to you.

But I find that a typical jenever has less of a juniper taste than a typical gin. In addition to that, most jonge jenevers are sold at 35 %ABV, while I think most gins have a higher percentage. So if you are used to gins, I am not surprised most jenevers do taste very tame and weak, both in alcohol and botanicals.
I myself prefer oude jenever or even malt wine: these have a bit more alcohol (38 %) and more botanicals, approaching gins. After distilling often a bit of liquorice is macerated, which gives both a slight yellow colour and a slightly softer taste.

When I started reading about gin I tried to collect as much recipes as possible, getting more and more confused. But in that time I thought there could be a best recipe. Now I think there is a large field of good recipes, a multidimensional space, so to say. And there are a few good recipes in this space, depending on your own taste and the use you want to make of the jenever or gin (or ouzo or arak or whatever). All ingredients can be used from 0 to a maximum, just like you want (or is available).

On HomeDistiller there is a thread of Odin's easy gin, that gives a very good starting point. He starts with a very clean neutral, but if you want grain, you could as well start with a suitable grain alcohol.

I think that rather than to try and imitate a drink you do not like, you can try and find your own recipe.
The Bols you could keep as a reference or treat as any imperfect drink. Still again with your feints, use some strong botanicals to mask the taste or such tricks.
Cheers! :)
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Re: Jenever, genever or peket

Postby Tdick » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:04 pm

Kareltje wrote:Well, I only made a jenever about 30 years ago. Soon after that I stopped distilling and only 4 years ago I took it up again.

You have found a fancy bottle, but even if I had seen it before, I doubt if my taste is of any value to you.
Cheers! :)

Your opinion and taste is certainly of interest to me, whether I agree with it or not :?
MY opinion is I taste no botanicals at all. As I said My wife who loves Sapphire thought it tasted like a light Scotch.
Just an update. Last night I poured a shot of 50/50 Jenever & Bombay. Even with the mix, I tasted no botanicals.
Thinking maybe it was ME, I took a sip of the Bombay. Dead on dry with the botanicals intact.
So again, I think I'll run my sugarhead down to a palatable point and use Stubby's Gin

Stubby's Gin , which is supposed to be a closer match to Sapphire:

" For a 2l boiler charge you need these ingredients

30g of juniper berries
15g of corriander seed
2g of angelica root
2g of Cassia bark ( not cinnaman sticks )
2g of liquorice root
4-6 drops of almond essence
2g of grains of paradise
2g of cubeb berries
0.2g of lemon/lime zest
0.2g of orris root powder

grind the above in a spice grinder ( medium to course )
place grounds in 1 ltr of GOOD CLEAN neutral that is 45%abv. ( I do it in a 5 lltr demi-john ) for 24 hrs , shaking it up occasionally
after 24 hrs add another 1 ltr of the neutral ( @ 45% abv. )
give it a bit of a shake up
pour into the lil boiler and distill"


I will post the results as I go.
:D :D
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