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Vapor issue

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Re: Vapor issue

Postby ZeroGee » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:38 pm

project wrote:The column is 4" diameter and 50" in height. Boiler is 40 gal and was putting 4.2kw once up to temp. ABV was holding steady at94% until I shut it down to address this issue. Take off was 1liter every 8 minutes. I changed things up quite a bit on this one so the learning curve is a little different. It takes a lot more input to keep the lower plates loaded than I was expecting but I'll eventually find where it likes to run. Everyone I have built seems to have its own little quirks but I change the design up all the time . Half the fun for me is the building process.
Your heat's right, but you need at least 30 inches more height on your column to allow the rising vapor to mix with the descending water droplets from the defleg. That's maybe why you're seeing "mist" instead of vapor. Ya gotta let the column do its thing.

If the added height doesn't help, you might want to revisit your defleg as you said. A few guys add some copper or SS scrubbers inside the coil to mix the vapor at the top and create more water droplets for the upper column. Don't know if you have placement adjustment for the defleg, but you might want to think about it. Dad300 has had a few suggestions concerning this issue and some interesting solutions.

Sounds like you're close!

Best of luck,
ZG
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby project » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:29 pm

ZeroGee wrote:
project wrote:The column is 4" diameter and 50" in height. Boiler is 40 gal and was putting 4.2kw once up to temp. ABV was holding steady at94% until I shut it down to address this issue. Take off was 1liter every 8 minutes. I changed things up quite a bit on this one so the learning curve is a little different. It takes a lot more input to keep the lower plates loaded than I was expecting but I'll eventually find where it likes to run. Everyone I have built seems to have its own little quirks but I change the design up all the time . Half the fun for me is the building process.
Your heat's right, but you need at least 30 inches more height on your column to allow the rising vapor to mix with the descending water droplets from the defleg. That's maybe why you're seeing "mist" instead of vapor. Ya gotta let the column do its thing.

If the added height doesn't help, you might want to revisit your defleg as you said. A few guys add some copper or SS scrubbers inside the coil to mix the vapor at the top and create more water droplets for the upper column. Don't know if you have placement adjustment for the defleg, but you might want to think about it. Dad300 has had a few suggestions concerning this issue and some interesting solutions.

Sounds like you're close!

Best of luck,
ZG

I'm out of room on the height. Overall height now is 103" and I have cut a hole in the ceiling for the 180° bend from the dephlag to the condensor . 30" would put me in the 11' range and I just don't have the height for it. Maybe I just need to sell this one to someone with a taller building and build a shorter one.. lol
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby ZeroGee » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:40 am

ZeroGee wrote:I'm out of room on the height. Overall height now is 103" and I have cut a hole in the ceiling for the 180° bend from the dephlag to the condensor . 30" would put me in the 11' range and I just don't have the height for it. Maybe I just need to sell this one to someone with a taller building and build a shorter one.. lol
Uuhh... yeah, I was wondering about that. You're not the first and definitely won't be the last with this problem. But you can't ignore physics.

However... I've seen dual column designs that are supposed to work around this issue, but I don't recall specifics. The idea would be to get the reflux back to the top plate from the secondary (offset) column. Hmm, maybe not. Perhaps a liquid return to the second plate overflow section (which would resolve your light-volume lower plate problem), using the third and fourth plates for the separation. The dephlegmator would be atop the offset column. The liquid return from the secondary column would need a catchment container to prevent blow-by from the main column.

I'm sure some of the guys will have a few suggestions and I'll try to come up with a workable sketch. Give me a day or so.

ZG
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby sugarcreek » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:22 am

punkin wrote:Thats a hell of a lot of condensor. Early in the run can be mon condesable gasses. That condensor should knock down 20 l an hour.


That is a helluva lot of condenser. I did some googling to learn about creating a mist from a liquid at atmospheric pressure (let's hope zed pops in here) and I simply don't think it's possible. Furthermore, that I'm aware of, there's no component of a low wines that can't be condensed. I'm at a loss. Hopefully someone with a physics background will chime in here.
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby punkin » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:43 pm

Didn't see low wines mentioned, but if you are not currently stripping and running low wines at 40% then that will help you get higher resolution on your final run. Seems to me there's a lot of cross talk between packed columns and plated columns going on. Plated column's have musc different power capacity than packing alone.
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby project » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:20 pm

punkin wrote:Didn't see low wines mentioned, but if you are not currently stripping and running low wines at 40% then that will help you get higher resolution on your final run. Seems to me there's a lot of cross talk between packed columns and plated columns going on. Plated column's have musc different power capacity than packing alone.

Adding the copper mesh in the bottom of the cooling tubes of the condensor solved the mist issue. I changed from 1/4" to 3/8 copper supply lines to the dephlag and that completely changed the way it behaved. It runs more like a normal plated column now and is more predictable . All but the bottom 2 plates loaded easily and held steady 94-95% the entire run. I think a few more runs and I'll have it dialed in. Thanks for all the input
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby ZeroGee » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:44 am

Kinda figured this is where it was headed. Nice looking commercial still, though.

Good luck and happy New Year!
ZG
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby project » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:25 pm

ZeroGee wrote:Kinda figured this is where it was headed. Nice looking commercial still, though.

Good luck and happy New Year!
ZG

Not exactly a commercial still, lol. It was made with mostly left over parts from other builds. Even the wood was left over material from canoe builds. I'm already trying to decide what to build next.
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby ZeroGee » Mon Jan 02, 2017 8:52 am

That was intended as a compliment. Very nicely done!
Age, in and of itself, does not confer wisdom.
Instead, it provides a list of mistakes you hope, profoundly, never to repeat.
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Re: Vapor issue

Postby project » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:59 am

ZeroGee wrote:That was intended as a compliment. Very nicely done!

Thank you very much. Considering all the talent in this place, I feel mediocre at best.
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