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2" Teflon sieve Plates?

These are boilers with half columns, bubble, sieve or any other plates. These stills may make a particular type of spirits. Please feel free to discuss the benefits and features of these beautiful machines and their inventive builders.

Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby googe » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:39 am

One advantage I could see is if you used them for a plate tree they might seal better than solid plates. Would be minimal though.
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby Cedar Grove » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:40 am

I would avoid Plastics in general. They can be compatable for reactivity, but still impart a Flavor that is undesirable.
Given the cost of Waterjet cutting, Metal plates wouldn't be terribly expensive. Maybe a few People could get together and have a Waterjet Shop make a run. I think Admiral Steel could help out. Or Google waterjet Cutting. I'm only running a 3" packed Column, and haven't stepped up to the Plates yet.

I'm thinking of making a 4 or 5" diameter Column and then would make some Plates from Copper plate.
The Scapyard I deal with has Copper plate in alloy 110 for around$3-3.50 per #. Would 1/4" thick plate be too much for this Purpose?
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby zedzedtop » Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:11 am

1/4'' is not too thick, but 1/8'' is jolly good too. My plates are 1/16'' and are fine. 1/8'' would have been a little easier to machine and braze.
'Bubble cap plates are better for batch distillation than perforated plates' - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby Cedar Grove » Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:07 pm

With Waterjet You wouldn't have much to machine. The Water and Grit balst through the Metal to about .005" Accuracy.
Laser is a bit less precise at .010" but that's probably good enough. Copper is a bit "grabby" when drilling, make sure it's properly Clamped.
Thicker Material is available at the Scrapyard, but I think .750-1" Thick would be Excessive. I did see some Cooled Plates that ahd been made for a Reactor Vessel. They had crossdrilled ports that were threaded and plugged for coolant flow. Not sure if that Idea applies to Distilling in Hobbyist Sense.
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby ZeroGee » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:57 pm

Cedar Grove wrote:With Waterjet You wouldn't have much to machine. The Water and Grit balst through the Metal to about .005" Accuracy.
Laser is a bit less precise at .010" but that's probably good enough
There seems to be cross-talk between your subject, perforated (sieve) plates, and bubble cap plates. It was mentioned that column packing, usually stainless scrub pads, worked best in 2- and 3-inch columns, while perforated and bubble plate caps worked best in 4-inch columns and above. I heartily agree with that. A 4-inch column on a 15 gallon keg boiler is like swatting mosquitoes with a sledge hammer. Larger boilers get beyond hobby distilling levels.

Your original post showed a rather thick perforated plastic plate. I suggested thin SS perforated plate instead, like that used for fine particle strainers. The idea is to separate ethanol from water in the vapor by cooling it below the boiling point of water, but above the boiling point of ethanol. The plate holds a level of liquid which acts as a coolant to the rising vapor and helps separate the ethanol. If the level of liquid gets too high, the down-comer drains the surplus to the next lower level or back into the boiler to be re-vaporized.

For a perforated plate, the thinner the plate, the smaller and more frequent the holes, then, of course, the better the mix of liquid and vapor. Bubble cap plates have tubes covered by a cap attached to the plate by "legs" that keep the bottom of the cap below the level of the liquid, forcing the vapor through the cooler liquid. Liquid that rises above a certain level is, as in the perforated plate, drained to the next lower level. This way the top plate holds the coolest liquid and the bottom, the warmest.

For hobby sized 2- and 3-inch columns, the use of stainless steel scrubbers made from flattened steel ribbons provides the most thorough and least expensive method of exposing/mixing the rising water/ethanol vapor with the cooler liquid. The separated water falls back and the ethanol vapor continues to rise to the output condenser. Done properly, the output can be as high as 95.63% ethanol (azeotrope) in a single pass.

Despite some arguments to the contrary, reflux stills do not remove flavor. To do that requires activated carbon filtration.

To find what you need, look up "stainless screen" or "stainless filter" on e-Bay or Google. Some simple design work with spot welding can have you going inexpensively and quickly. You can get "sample" sizes fairly cheaply.

ZG
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby jetkrazee » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:28 pm

ZeroGee wrote:
Cedar Grove wrote:With Waterjet You wouldn't have much to machine. The Water and Grit balst through the Metal to about .005" Accuracy.
Laser is a bit less precise at .010" but that's probably good enough
There seems to be cross-talk between your subject, perforated (sieve) plates, and bubble cap plates. It was mentioned that column packing, usually stainless scrub pads, worked best in 2- and 3-inch columns, while perforated and bubble plate caps worked best in 4-inch columns and above. I heartily agree with that. A 4-inch column on a 15 gallon keg boiler is like swatting mosquitoes with a sledge hammer. Larger boilers get beyond hobby distilling levels.

Your original post showed a rather thick perforated plastic plate. I suggested thin SS perforated plate instead, like that used for fine particle strainers. The idea is to separate ethanol from water in the vapor by cooling it below the boiling point of water, but above the boiling point of ethanol. The plate holds a level of liquid which acts as a coolant to the rising vapor and helps separate the ethanol. If the level of liquid gets too high, the down-comer drains the surplus to the next lower level or back into the boiler to be re-vaporized.

For a perforated plate, the thinner the plate, the smaller and more frequent the holes, then, of course, the better the mix of liquid and vapor. Bubble cap plates have tubes covered by a cap attached to the plate by "legs" that keep the bottom of the cap below the level of the liquid, forcing the vapor through the cooler liquid. Liquid that rises above a certain level is, as in the perforated plate, drained to the next lower level. This way the top plate holds the coolest
liquid and the bottom, the warmest.

For hobby sized 2- and 3-inch columns, the use of stainless steel scrubbers made from flattened steel ribbons provides the most thorough and least expensive method of exposing/mixing the rising water/ethanol vapor with the cooler liquid. The separated water falls back and the ethanol vapor continues to rise to the output condenser. Done properly, the output can be as high as 95.63% ethanol (azeotrope) in a single pass.

Despite some arguments to the contrary, reflux stills do not remove flavor. To do that requires activated carbon filtration.

To find what you need, look up "stainless screen" or "stainless filter" on e-Bay or Google. Some simple design work with spot welding can have you going inexpensively and quickly. You can get "sample" sizes fairly cheaply.

ZG

Thank you ZG.
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby Cedar Grove » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:20 pm

I've been thinking of making a larger Diameter Column to shorten the Run Time, and make a better flavored Distillate. I'm not interested in making GNS, only Whiskey, Rum, and Brandy.
Do You think 3 Perforated copper sieve Plates with Downcomers would be sufficient for my Goal?

I've already got the 4' and 5" stainless Tubing for the Column. The 4" was free.
I'll check around for some Copper plate at the Scrapyard to machine. I'm thinking CNC machining the Diameter and holes. What do You think of the spacing between Plates, same as the Diameter of the Column? Ideally I'd like to make the Distillate finished in one Pass if possible.
Thanks,
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby pintoshine » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:07 pm

The weir formed by the pipe sticking up is to maintain the liquid level above the plate while the trap prevents the gas from bypassing the plate altogether. If there is no down comer the plate just keeps filling if the gas velocity is high enough.
Distill safe. Make good cuts. Enjoy yourself. Give as much as you take. Have fun doing this incredibly hard work. Be a good example. It's your hobby.
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby Cedar Grove » Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:15 pm

I roughly understand the concept of Perforated plates, with the Downcomer. What Weir height would You recommend for the high side of the Downcomer? Making Plates for Me should be easy, the hard part is the Dimensions. I didn't think making a bubbke Cap Tray was needed for my Application.
Thanks,
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby pintoshine » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:10 pm

The weir height should be about an inch for effective separation of gas and liquid for that small diameter. The trap needs to be at least twice as low as the weir is height to prevent the back pressure from pushing the liquid up the pipe.
Distill safe. Make good cuts. Enjoy yourself. Give as much as you take. Have fun doing this incredibly hard work. Be a good example. It's your hobby.
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby skow69 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:02 pm

This Russian gentleman seems to be pretty fond of small diameter synthetic sieve plates without DCs. Being a dumb monolingual American, I have no idea what his rap is about, but he sure stuffs a lot of plates into a short small column.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSOlnZ-LR38
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby brandavino » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:40 am

Looks Familiar :D Igor at work again.
I think their main appeal is that you can use the same column for semi-continuous stripping of both flour or sugar washes and for the spirit runs.
Stripping a flour mash through SPP wouldn't be pretty :shock: And of course they make good vodka, the website says so. :beer:

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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby Cedar Grove » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:02 am

Do You think 3 Copper Sieve Plates on a Tree arrangement with 1/2" Copper Downcomers would be sufficient?
I'd use Stainless threaded Rod for central Support, and to make the tree removable. Do You think I could make each Plate a "Sandwich" Arrangement of 2 Plates with Tefon Sheet around the edge to seal ther Column? I want to be able to remove the Plates from the Column for Cleaning. I'm thinking 5" Diameterm and 5" betwwen Plates, or should I go higher?

Would it be best to run a Dephlegmeter on Top the same 5" above the top Plate? I'd make it out of 1" stainlesss for the Tubes.
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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby brandavino » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:05 pm

5" plate to plate and to the delph should be fine, I would go for 4 plates with at least 3/4" down comers and a flared top, larger if you are running a big boiler/power.
If you are carefull and make a nice tight slip fit on the plates you shouldn't need the teflon seals, I guess if you have trouble you could always add a seal later.

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Re: 2" Teflon sieve Plates?

Postby Cedar Grove » Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:57 am

Thanks Bran for the info. I was going to have the Plates Waterjet Cut, and make more than I need. I figure that if I want to add more Plates They'll already be done. The Plates can be cut in a stack, so it's pretty fast. How much clearance do You think is too much around the Plate .004"
That's about the thickness of a Sheet of Paper. They can hold .005" tolerance on the Machine.

I was thinking about the Dephlegemater Dimensions, and Materials. Do You think I should go with Stainless Shell and Tube or Copper Shell and Tube in the 5" SS Jacket. I was going to go 2X the Column Diameter for Stainless, and 1-1.5X Diameter for Copper. I have 1" Stainless Tubing already as stock. I might TIG the Deph, but may go with the Silver soft Solder if I use Copper. Maybe I could setup the Tubes and Shell, an dput it in the Oven to Solder. Once heated to 450F, take it out and Flux, then wipe the Solder on. I don't think it woul be as easy as TIG Though.
I'm not a Welder, so I'd have a Friend do the Welding.

I'd like to make all of the Design Decisions before I start cutting.

It'll be a 2" Diameter transfer Pipe to the 5" separate Column, then Reduced down after the Deph and run into a Shell in Tube Product Condenser.
How Tall should the 5" Diameter Column be? Extra empty head Room without Plates shoudn't hurt anything right?
Thanks for Your Time,
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