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Heads Removal, any ideas?

Any sort that runs continuous. Examples are beer stripping stills that have a continuously, vodka stills fed from a beer stripper or any sort of spirit doubler, meaning continuously fed pot still.

Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Rebel_Yell » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:44 pm

An azeotrope (/əˈziːətroʊp/ ə-ZEE-ə-trohp or /ˈeɪziətroʊp/ AY-zee-ə-trohp) is a mixture of two or more liquids whose proportions cannot be altered by simple distillation. This happens because, when an azeotrope is boiled, the vapor has the same proportions of constituents as the unboiled mixture.
Your results may vary..
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Harry » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:12 pm

Thanks for that Reb. But let's go a little further...

@Brantoken. Follow these; study and self-education is a light load to carry...

Bond means hydrogen atom bonding. Pics and explanation...
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/ ... cules.html

...much more indepth here...
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=meth ... gws_rd=ssl


Pintoshine posts referring to methanol...

pintoshine wrote:I have said this many times and I'll keep repeating it. The very small amount of methanol that is created by the yeast distills over through out the entire run just as the ethanol does. I have shown graphs on other parts of the site showing so. This "Foreshots" and "Feints" idea basically leads one to believe that all the methanol can be removed by tossing the first small amount which is entirely false.


search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=2
.


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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Harry » Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:40 pm

More data...

Azeotrope_Data Ternary 3-component methanol-ethanol-water.PNG
.


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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Mud » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:30 pm

This worked for the French:
guillotine.jpg
Specialization is for Kiwi.
Artisan Distilling Book
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Teddysad » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:44 pm

Mud you beat me to it
Proverbs 31 6=7
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:57 pm

...and you don't want to know how they removed tails. :shock:
Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller http://www.kelleybarts.com/zymurgy-bob- ... e-spirits/

You can make whisky in a reflux still, you can make vodka in a potstill,
and you can eat chicken noodle soup with a crescent wrench. But...
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby JaCh » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:20 am

Probably not as quickly or cleanly. :barf:
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby zedzedtop » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:56 pm

Crap, beat me to it too. We think alike.
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby harrisorganic » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:40 am

Hello,
When we are making neutral spirits in our column stills we collect a certain percentage of heads. These go to a collection drum (90+%) and in my case I experimented in watering these back to about 70% and redistilled carefully to compress the heads and try to collect some clean neutral grape spirit. I failed, all the grape spirit (95.5%), ex heads, has a turpentine taste.
Has any one experienced this?
If so what is the component that gives this taste.?
Hari.
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Harry » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:54 pm

70% dilution won't do it. You need hydroseparation, 27%.
Check this out...
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=403&p=29400&hilit=hydro#p29400
.


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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby harrisorganic » Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:11 am

Harry thats a great string to read. Lots of info to digest.
I have a Cognac paper (in French) that talks about having a charge of 9%alc and low wines of 27-30%. Just as you have mentioned. Now I know why.
merci
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby harrisorganic » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:58 am

Harry wrote:70% dilution won't do it. You need hydroseparation, 27%.
Check this out...
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=403&p=29400&hilit=hydro#p29400

Hi Harry,
I did an experiment, taking 2 litres of heads with the turpentine taste and watered it back to 20% and immediately redistilled it.
Result; the turps is still there in the final product, after refluxing for an hour and taking 300mL before tasting.
The turps seems to be right through the product.

Question: does the hydroseparation take more time, ie a few days/weeks.... to separate or is it instant.?

I have seen in brandy, oils come out of suspension several months after watering back and bottling.

Any thoughts?
regards
Hari.
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Harry » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:38 pm

harrisorganic wrote:Hi Harry,
I did an experiment, taking 2 litres of heads with the turpentine taste and watered it back to 20%

Harry says: That's the 1st step only (Hydro comes from the Greek 'hudōr' meaning water).
.

and immediately redistilled it.

Harry says: Wrong move. You missed the 2nd step ie 'separation'. For this you need a separator, a 'florentine' flask. Re-read that thread. There's a sketch of my simple separator setup. That's how you prep the liquid to draw for your still charge.

Result; the turps is still there in the final product, after refluxing for an hour and taking 300mL before tasting.
The turps seems to be right through the product.

Harry says: Because you didn't separate out the oils first.


Question: does the hydroseparation take more time, ie a few days/weeks.... to separate or is it instant.?

Harry says: It's not instant, but an ongoing reaction. Same as any separation process. Gravity does the work. In the florentine flask separator, heavy stuff (solids) tend to sink, lighter stuff (oils) floats. When you're satisfied (look for the multi-coloured oil sheen floating on top, looks a bit like spilt gasoline in water), you draw off the clean uncontaminated middle fraction and charge that to the still for distilling. Longer separation is better. Of course you 'could' use a centrifuge like the labs do with test tube separation. But centrifuges are expensive and somewhat dangerous to operate (hi-speed spinning).

I have seen in brandy, oils come out of suspension several months after watering back and bottling.

Harry says: Dissolved oils in products are called 'homogenized'. Such products will naturally do that over time.

Any thoughts?
regards
Hari.


Harry says: The turpentine fault is probably coming from the grape skins. It's common in grappa and I've had it in mango processing. Do you distill marc? If so, then hydroseparation (with a flask) is a required essential in the process.


EDIT, more info re grapes...
turpenes & turpenoids

Terpenes are a large and diverse class of organic compounds, produced by a variety of plants, particularly conifers, though also by some insects such as termites or swallowtail butterflies, which emit terpenes from their osmeteria.

Many terpenes are aromatic hydrocarbons and thus may have had a protective function. The difference between terpenes and terpenoids is that terpenes are hydrocarbons, whereas terpenoids contain additional functional groups.

Terpenes and terpenoids are the primary constituents of the essential oils of many types of plants and flowers. Essential oils are used widely as natural flavor additives for food, as fragrances in perfumery, and in medicine and alternative medicines such as aromatherapy.

Types:



Norisoprenoids, such as the C13-norisoprenoids 3-oxo-α-ionol present in Muscat of Alexandria leaves and 7,8-dihydroionone derivatives, such as megastigmane-3,9-diol and 3-oxo-7,8-dihydro-α-ionol found in Shiraz leaves (both grapes in the species Vitis vinifera)[6] or wine[7][8] (responsible for some of the spice notes in Chardonnay), can be produced by fungal peroxidases[9] or glycosidases.[10]

References:
7. Winterhalter, P.; Sefton, M. A.; Williams, P. J. (1990). "Volatile C13-Norisoprenoid Compounds in Riesling Wine Are Generated From Multiple Precursors". Am. J. Enol. Vitic 41 (4): 277–283.
8. Vinholes, Juliana; Coimbra, Manuel A.; Rocha, Sílvia M. (2009). "Rapid tool for assessment of C13 norisoprenoids in wines". Journal of Chromatography A 1216 (47): 8398–403. doi:10.1016/j.chroma.2009.09.061. PMID 19828152.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terpene
.


Slainte!
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Winning the hearts & minds; one post at a time.
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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby Harry » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:22 pm

Duncan, this link... https://books.google.com.au/books?id=-y ... ol&f=false

may help you understand the florentine flask concept. It's about essential oils distillation and processing but there's a few good tips, photos & drawings also.

HTH
.


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Re: Heads Removal, any ideas?

Postby harrisorganic » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:29 am

Hi and thanks for your help Harry. Will do some testing to see if I see any oil on top.

Harry says: The turpentine fault is probably coming from the grape skins. It's common in grappa and I've had it in mango processing. Do you distill marc? If so, then hydroseparation (with a flask) is a required essential in the process.

No I am not using marc, but are using some pressings which have some solids and skin contact.
I believe the Cognacians only use free run for their spirit.
Dont forget the 20L of heads I have collected from processing 4000L of wine. I envisage that the turps has been concentrated in the heads and carried over each time. luckily most of my spirits dont have this character.
At this point I am testing to see if I can recover some clean alcohol from the heads or if I have to write them off. A nice learning experiment.

Besides floating the turps off as an oil has carbon filtering/soaking been tried successfully?
regards
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