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Taste & Burn

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Taste & Burn

Postby KGB » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:16 pm

Hi Guys,

Perhaps you could help me by either offering guidance or providing me with some information. Corn whiskey is what it is and some individuals prefer the taste of shine to a commercial Kentucky or Tennessee product. Be it as it may, there are times that we may desire to alter the taste of our spirits to emulate that of Kentucky or Tennessee sprits. It can be quite a challenge at best.

Generally speaking, I have kinda / sorta changed the taste and color of my spirit to somewhat resemble George Dickel. I have also proofed the spirit to 90 proof, practically identical to that of George Dickel. However, there is a lingering, difficult-to-describe-after-taste and a wee bit of burning or tingling of the tongue when my spirit is held in the mouth or after it has been ingested. This sensation is not realized when testing Dickel. I added ~ one tsp of sugar to a pint of my product with thoughts this may ‘tame the beast’ but that hasn’t seemed helped. Cutting the proof from 100 to 90 did make a significant difference ..... but the "bite" is still there. After waiting approximately one hour to allow things to clear, and then smelling of my product and then Dickel, it would seem that Dickel has a little bit more smokey aroma than my product.

I am thinking that if I can reduce or eliminate burning of the tongue then I will be close enough that I can, for now, “call it good” and return at a later date for further refinement . Rome wasn't built in a day. :)

Would you have any suggestions regarding cause for the spirit to burn the tongue and would you have suggestions on how to significantly reduce or completely eliminate burning of the tongue?

Thanks,

KGB
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby pintoshine » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:26 pm

I would suggest that you learn to cut your heads a little more into the run. If you are getting a large amount of throat burn the it is the tails that need addressing.
Try cutting your spirit straight off the still with a lot of water until the alcohol mixes well with water with no off flavors. This will cut the off taste and the hotness. Don't worry if it seems like a lot to cut, you can always add it to your next run to get more hearts next time.
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby kiwi » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:27 pm

age, and / or tighter cuts.
[posting same time as pint]
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby KGB » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:56 pm

pintoshine wrote:I would suggest that you learn to cut your heads a little more into the run. If you are getting a large amount of throat burn the it is the tails that need addressing.
Try cutting your spirit straight off the still with a lot of water until the alcohol mixes well with water with no off flavors. This will cut the off taste and the hotness. Don't worry if it seems like a lot to cut, you can always add it to your next run to get more hearts next time.


pintoshine:

I appreciate your reply. There is however, no "throat burn". My original statement addressed burning of the tongue. It goes down quite smoothly with no burn to the throat. Burn to the tongue seems to accompany the lingering after taste. Perhaps your use of the term "throat burn" is a matter of semantics but in this case I want to make certain that we are not talking about two different things and that's why I stressed burning of the tongue. :wink: Are we talking about the same thing?

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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby KGB » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:03 pm

kiwi wrote:age, and / or tighter cuts.
[posting same time as pint]


Kiwi,

How would you recommend aging and for how long?

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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby kiwi » Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:09 am

Well, it depends a bit on what you do with your cuts. But six months on oak helps forgive a lot of sins. personally I won't go back to anything less than a year now that I've tasted the progression. After 2 years the improvements in my spirits seemed to slow.
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby Zymurgy Bob » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:15 am

In addition to agreeing with the aging/cuts information you've got so far, you can hasten one aspect of aging, the evaporation of the harsh angels' share, by bubbling lots (and I don't mean a wimpy aquarium pump and airstone) of clean air through your spirit. You'll smell the light, hot early fractions coming off right away, which is your fast-aging benefit happening, but you need to recognize you'll lose a tiny amount of ABV in the process.

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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby punkin » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:36 pm

You need to adjust to Pint's style of wording. If you read back what he typed to you it says that you need to be tighter in your heads cut to reduce tongue burn. Then went on to say that if you had been talking about throat burn he would have advised you it was tails.

Kiwi and bob have supported what Pint said about ageing in the fact that harshness can be driven off from whiskey with long exposure to atmosphere over a couple of weeks, or shorter exposure to more atmosphere.

I would have proffered the same advice as Kiwi. Expose the spirit to air and be prepared to lose a few points. :8)
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby KGB » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:49 pm

punkin wrote:You need to adjust to Pint's style of wording. If you read back what he typed to you it says that you need to be tighter in your heads cut to reduce tongue burn. Then went on to say that if you had been talking about throat burn he would have advised you it was tails. :8)


Gee punkin, I thought I may have missed something but I just re-read Pint's reply and it states, "I would suggest that you learn to cut your heads a little more into the run." His very next statement is, "If you are getting a large amount of throat burn the it is the tails that need addressing." My monitor shows no mention of tongue burn. I have refreshed my screen several times thinking I may be missing something but it comes up the same every time. Something is strange.

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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby Harry » Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:06 pm

There are other ways of reducing harshness in spirits manufacture, some centuries old. See my latest post in another thread, on the use of flour...

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=6123&start=6



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regards Harry
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby punkin » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:28 pm

KGB wrote:
punkin wrote:You need to adjust to Pint's style of wording. If you read back what he typed to you it says that you need to be tighter in your heads cut to reduce tongue burn. Then went on to say that if you had been talking about throat burn he would have advised you it was tails. :8)


Gee punkin, I thought I may have missed something but I just re-read Pint's reply and it states, "I would suggest that you learn to cut your heads a little more into the run." His very next statement is, "If you are getting a large amount of throat burn the it is the tails that need addressing." My monitor shows no mention of tongue burn. I have refreshed my screen several times thinking I may be missing something but it comes up the same every time. Something is strange.

KGB



Not trying to be a prick about this, but you said in your original post (the one that Pint directly replied to) that there was burning of the tongue, three times.

Pint replied saying "I would suggest that you learn to cut your heads a little more into the run.".
This was to adress your complaint about burning of the tongue.

He went on to say if the problem had been burning of the throat then you could address this by taking a tighter tails cut.

If you aren't happy with the advice don't take it, but that was the advice that was given.
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby KGB » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:56 pm

punkin wrote:
KGB wrote:
punkin wrote:You need to adjust to Pint's style of wording. If you read back what he typed to you it says that you need to be tighter in your heads cut to reduce tongue burn. Then went on to say that if you had been talking about throat burn he would have advised you it was tails. :8)


Gee punkin, I thought I may have missed something but I just re-read Pint's reply and it states, "I would suggest that you learn to cut your heads a little more into the run." His very next statement is, "If you are getting a large amount of throat burn the it is the tails that need addressing." My monitor shows no mention of tongue burn. I have refreshed my screen several times thinking I may be missing something but it comes up the same every time. Something is strange.

KGB



Not trying to be a prick about this, but you said in your original post (the one that Pint directly replied to) that there was burning of the tongue, three times.

Pint replied saying "I would suggest that you learn to cut your heads a little more into the run.".
This was to adress your complaint about burning of the tongue.

He went on to say if the problem had been burning of the throat then you could address this by taking a tighter tails cut.

If you aren't happy with the advice don't take it, but that was the advice that was given.


Gee punkin, it simply didn't read that way. I just read it as straight forward, plain English and took each sentence as intentional and never once assumed implied meanings. If what you have said is what he had meant to say then I can surely take his advice without hesitation nor mental reservation. I too don't mean to be a prick. I can only read that which is before me and THAT is often the problem with forums ....... tone or suggested meaning of one's comment can be easily misinterpreted unless one is succinctly clear. I'm glad we've gotten this behind us. Now we can move forward and advance our hobby in meaningful discussions.
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby punkin » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:44 am

Excellent, i don't like speaking for Pint, but i am used to the way he types. I may be completely wrong, but that's how i read it.
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby hellbilly007 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:49 pm

Zymurgy Bob wrote:In addition to agreeing with the aging/cuts information you've got so far, you can hasten one aspect of aging, the evaporation of the harsh angels' share, by bubbling lots (and I don't mean a wimpy aquarium pump and airstone) of clean air through your spirit. You'll smell the light, hot early fractions coming off right away, which is your fast-aging benefit happening, but you need to recognize you'll lose a tiny amount of ABV in the process.

Image

This is what my "angel blaster" looks like. That's a Coleman airbed filler pump, kinda like a small leaf blower.


Just to clarify, is this apparatus to be used in the oak barrel or not?
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Re: Taste & Burn

Postby Handsome » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:06 pm

I would say it should not be used when ageing in oak barrels. Why? Because fast ageing seems a bit redundant when using oak barrels IMHO. Better of using cheaper containers with oak staves or chips in combination with fast aging.

Please do correct me if I am wrong though :)
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